Did Moses write the Torah?

[otseng]

There are two main views regarding the authorship of the Torah (Pentateuch). The traditional view holds that Moses wrote it during the Exodus from Egypt, around the 15th or 13th century BC, depending on the early or late date of the Exodus. The scholarly view proposes that the Torah was compiled during the post-exilic period in Persia, between approximately 539 and 333 BC.

Debate topic: Did Moses write the Torah?

[Difflugia]

Actually, I don't have much of a problem with the idea that it's two different sources combined into a single narrative.

So, in that case, what, if anything, do you think Moses had to do with this story as we have it? Was he the originator (oral? written?) of the story that later diverged into multiple traditions? Did he collect the traditions and write them down?

But, what is interesting is that the sources contain both similarities and contradictions. What can account for the similarities? Either they both came from an older common source or one copied from the other. It seems the former is more likely, otherwise why the variations in detail?

I absolutely agree. I think there are multiple instances of common traditions that diverged. The two Flood stories are intertwined like this one is, but when examined carefully, can be separated into two complete narratives. The story of a patriarch and his wife having an awkward encounter with a local king is told three times. First, in Genesis 12, it's Abraham and Pharaoh. Abraham then does the same thing again with Abimelech and Phicol in Genesis 20-21. Third, Isaac repeats almost exactly the same encounter with Abimelech and Phicol in Genesis 26.

One of my favorite duplicates is Genesis 14, which reads to me as an alternate tradition to the better-known Sodom and Gomorrah. It's still Lot being rescued through Abraham's intervention, but a lot less, "don't look over your shoulder at the angels," and more, "watch out for the tar pits that your enemies are getting stuck in!"

And like you said, it seems like the editor took care to not reconcile any contradictions, but left the original text from each source intact. Your typical writer would've combined the ideas from the sources and write a single narrative to try to resolve contradictions. So, like you said, the editor had a sacred view of the sources and only did a cut and paste and did not significantly alter the text.

Exactly. That says to me that however many redactors there were, they seem to have shared a similar reverence for the text itself. It's conjecture, but that implies to me that most of the redaction was done in a small number of large revisions. I think if the process took place in many smaller steps, the result would be smoother and more harmonious without the obvious redactional seams.

[otseng]

So, in that case, what, if anything, do you think Moses had to do with this story as we have it? Was he the originator (oral? written?) of the story that later diverged into multiple traditions? Did he collect the traditions and write them down?

Yes, I believe Moses was involved and wrote it rather than passed it down orally.

There had to have been a single common source for J, E, and P for Genesis and Exodus, given the sheer number of doublets and triplets.

Here's the list of doublets and triplets that Friedman points out:

1. Creation. Gen 1:1-2:3 (P) and Gen 2:4b-25 (J).
2. Genealogy from Adam. Gen 4:17-26 (J) and 5:1-28,30-32 (Book of Records).
3. The flood. Gen 6:5-8; 7:1-5,7,10,12,16b-20,22-23; 8:2b-3a,6,8-12,13b,20-22 (J) and 6:9-22; 7:8-9,11,13-16a,21,24; 8:1-2a,3b-5,7,13a,14-19; 9:1-17 (P).
4. Genealogy from Shem. Gen 10:21-31 (J and P) and 11:10-26 (Book of Records).
5. Abraham's migration. Gen 12:1-4a (J) and 12:4b-5 (P).
6. Wife/sister. Gen 12:10-20 (J) and 20:1-18 (E) and 26:6-14 (J). (Triplet)
7. Abraham and Lot separate. Gen 13:5,7-11a, 12b-14 (J) and 13:6,11b-12a (P).
8. The Abrahamic covenant. Genesis 15 (J, E, and R) and 17 (P).
9. Hagar and Ishmael. Gen 16:1-2,4-14 (J) and 16:3,15-16 (P) and 21:8-19 (E). (Triplet)
10. Prophecy of Isaac's birth. Gen 17:16-19 (P) and 18:10-14 (J).
11. Naming of Beer-sheba. Gen 21:22-31 (E) and 26:15-33 (J).
12. Jacob, Esau, and the departure to the east. Gen 26:34-35; 27:46; 28:1-9 (P) and 27:1-45; 28:10 (J).
13. Jacob at Beth-El. Gen 28:10,11a,13-16,19 (J) and 28:11b-12, 17-18,20-22 (E) and 35:9-15 (P). (Triplet)
14. Jacob's twelve sons. Gen 29:32-35; 30:1-24; 35:16-20 (JE) and Gen 35:23-26 (P).
15. Jacob's name changed to Israel. Gen 32:25-33 (E) and 35:9-10 (P).
16. Joseph sold into Egypt. Gen 37:2b,3b,5-11,19-20,23,25b-27, 28b,31-35; 39:1 (J) and 37:3a,4,12-18,21-22,24,25a,28a,29-30 (E).
17. YHWH commissions Moses. Exod 3:2-4a,5,7-8,19-22; 4:19-20a (J) and 3:1,4b,6,9-18; 4:1-18,20b-21a,22-23 (E) and 6:2-12 (P). (Triplet)
18. Moses, Pharaoh, and the plagues. Exod 5:3-6:1; 7:14-18,20b-21, 23-29; 8:3b-11a,16-28; 9:1-7,13-34; 10:1-19,21-26,28-29; 11:1-8 (E) and 7:6-13,19-20a,22; 8:1-3a,12-15; 9:8-12 (P).
19. The Passover. Exod 12:1-20,28,40-50 (P) and 12:21-27,29-36, 37b-39 (E).
20. The Red Sea. Exod 13:21-22; 14:5a,6,9a,10b,13-14,19b,20b, 21b,24,27b,30-31 (J) and 14:1-4,8,9b,10a,10c,15-18,21a,21c, 22-23,26-27a, 28-29 (P).
21. Manna and quail in the wilderness. Exod 16:2-3,6-35a (P) and Num 11:4-34 (E).
22. Water from a rock at Meribah. Exod 17:2-7 (E) and Num 20:2-13 (P).
23. Theophany at Sinai/Horeb. Exod 19:1; 24:15b-18a (P) and 19:2b-9,16b-17,19; 20:18-21 (E) and 19:10-16a,18,20-25 (J). (Triplet)
24. The Ten Commandments. Exod 20:1-17 (R) and 34:10-28 (J) and Deut 5:6-18 (D). (Triplet)
25. Kid in mother's milk. Exod 23:19 (Covenant Code) and 34:26 (J) and Deut 14:21 (D). (Triplet)
26. Forbidden animals. Leviticus 11 (P) and Deuteronomy 14 (D).
27. Centralization of sacrifice. Leviticus 17 and Deuteronomy 12.
28. Holidays. Leviticus 23 (P) and Numbers 28-29 (R) and Deut 16:1-17 (D). (Triplet)
29. The spies. Num 13:1-16,21,25-26,32; 14:1a,2-3,5-10,26-29 (P) and 13:17-20,22-24,27-31,33; 14:1b,4,11-25,39-45 (J).
30. Heresy at Peor. Num 25:1-5 (J) and 25:6-19 (P).
31. Appointment of Joshua. Num 27:12-23 (P) and Deut 31:14-15,23 (E).

Sources for Genesis:

J	E	P	R
2:4.6 - 2:25.99, 3:1 - 24, 4:1 - 16, 4:17 - 26, 5:29, 6:1-4, 6:5-8, 7:1-5, 7:7, 7:10, 7:12, 7:16.11 - 7:20.99, 7:22-23, 8:2.6 - 8:3.6, 8:6, 8:8-12, 8:13.13-8:13.99, 8:20-22, 9:18-27, 10:8-19, 10:21, 10:24-30, 11:1-9, 12:1.1-12:4.9, 12:6-9, 12:10-20, 13:1-5, 13:7.1-13:11.10, 13:12.9-13:18.99, 14:1-24, 15:1-21, 16:1-2, 16:4-14, 18:1-33, 19:1-28, 19:30-38, 21:1.1-21:1.6, 21:2.1-21:2.6, 21:7, 22:20-24, 24:1-67, 25:8.2-25:8.7, 25:11.10-25:11.99, 25:21-34, 26:1-11, 26:12-33, 27:1-45, 28:10.1-28:11.6, 28:13-16, 28:19, 29:1-30, 29:31-35, 30:1.1-30:1.6, 30:4.1-30:4.6, 30:24.5-30:24.99, 30:25-43, 31:3, 31:17, 31:49, 32:4-13, 34:1-31, 35:21-22, 36:31-43, 37:2.4-37:2.99, 37:3.12-37:3.99, 37:5-11, 37:19-20, 37:23, 37:25.4-37:27:99, 37:28.11-37:28.99, 37:31-35, 38:1-30, 39:1-23, 42:1-4, 42:8-20, 42:26-34, 42:38, 43:1-13, 43:15-17, 43:24-34, 44:1-34, 45:1-2, 45:4-28, 46:5.5-46:5.99, 46:28-34, 47:1-6, 47:11.1-47:27.5, 47:29-31, 49:1-27, 50:1-11, 50:14-22.	20:1-18, 21:6, 21:8-21, 21:22-34, 22:1-10, 22:16.6-22:19.99, 25:1-4, 28:11.7-28:12.99, 28:17-18, 28:20-22, 30:1.7-30:3.99, 30:4.7-30:24.4, 31:1-2, 31:4-16, 31:19-48, 31:50-54, 32:1-3, 32:14-24, 32:25-33, 33:1-17, 33:18.1-33:18.5, 33:18.12-33:18.99, 33:19-20, 35:1-8, 35:16-20, 37:3.1-37:3.11, 37:4, 37:12-18, 37:21-22, 37:24, 37:25.1-37:25.3, 37:28.1-37:28.10, 37:29-30, 37:36, 40:1-23, 41:1-41:45, 41:46.10-41:57.99, 42:5-7, 42:21-25, 42:35-37, 43:14, 43:18-23, 45:3, 46:1.1-46:5.4, 47:7-10, 48:1-2, 48:8-22, 50:23-26.	1:1 - 2:3, 6:9-22, 7:8-9, 7:11, 7:13.1- 7:16.10, 7:21, 7:24, 8:1.1-8:2.5, 8:3.7-8:5.99, 8:7, 8:13.1-8:13.12, 8:14-19, 9:1-17, 10:1.8-10:7.99, 10:20, 10:22-23, 10:31-32, 11:27.4-11:31.99, 12:4.10-12:5.99, 13:6, 13:11.11-13:12.8, 16:3, 16:15-16, 17:1-27, 19:29, 21:1.7-21:1.99, 21:2.7-21:5.99, 23:1-20, 25:7, 25:8.1-25:8.1, 25:8.8-25:11.9, 25:13-18, 25:20, 26:34-35, 27:46, 28:1-9, 31:18, 35:9-15, 35:23-26, 35:27, 35:28-29, 36:2-30, 37:1, 41:46.1-41:46.9, 46:6-27, 47:27.6-47:27.99, 47:28, 48:3-6, 49:29-33, 50:12-13.	2:4.1 - 2:4.5, 5:1-28, 5:30-32, 7:6, 9:28-29, 10:1.1-10:1.7, 11:10.1-11:10.3, 11:10.4-11:26.99, 11:27.1-11:27.3, 11:32, 22:11.1-22:16.5, 25:5-6, 25:12, 25:19, 33:18.6-33:18.11, 36:1, 37:2.1-37:2.3, 48:7, 49:28.

https://tanach.us/DH/DHSpecification.Genesis.xml

Sources for Exodus:

J	E	P	R
1:6, 1:22, 2:1.1-2:23.7, 3:2.1-3:4.5, 3:5, 3:7-8, 3:19-22, 4:19.1-4:20.12, 4:24-26, 5:1-2, 13:21-22, 14:5-7, 14:9.1-14:9.3, 14:10.3-14:10.99, 14:13-14, 14:19.10-14:19.99, 14:20.8-14:20.99, 14:21.7-14:21.99, 14:24, 14:25.7-14:25.99, 14:27.7-14:27.99, 14:30-31, 15:1-18, 15:22.11-15:25.11, 16:4-5, 16:35.13-16:35.99, 19:10.1-19:16.5, 19:18, 19:20-25, 34:1.1-34:1.5, 34:2-13, 34:14-28.	1:8-12, 1:15-21, 3:1, 3:4.6-3:4.99, 3:6, 3:9-18, 4:1-18, 4:20.13-4:20.99, 4:21.1-4:21.16, 4:22-23, 4:27-31, 5:3-6:1, 7:14-18, 7:20.8-7:21.13, 7:23-29, 8:3.5-8:11.8, 8:16-28, 9:1-7, 9:13-34, 10:1-19, 10:21-26, 10:28-29, 11:1-8, 12:21-23, 12:24-27, 12:29-36, 12:37.6-12:39.99, 13:1-16, 13:17-19, 14:11-12, 14:19.1-14:19.9, 14:20.1-14:20.7, 14:25.1-14:25.6, 15:20-21, 15:25.12-15:26.99, 17:2-7, 17:8-16, 18:1-27, 19:2.8-19:9.99, 19:16.6-19:17.99, 19:19, 20:18-26, 21:1-37, 22:1-30, 23:1-33, 24:1.1-24:15.5, 24:18.6-24:18.99, 32:1-33:11, 33:12-23.	1:7, 1:13-14, 2:23.8-2:25.99, 6:2-12, 6:14-25, 7:1-9, 7:10-13, 7:19.1-7:20.7, 7:21.14-7:21.99, 7:22, 8:1.1-8:3.4, 8:12-15, 9:8-12, 12:1-20, 12:28, 12:40-49, 14:1-4, 14:8, 14:9.4-14:9.99, 14:10.1-14:10.2, 14:15-18, 14:21.1-14:21.6, 14:22-23, 14:26.1-14:27.6, 14:28-29, 16:2-3, 16:6.1-16:35.12, 16:36, 19:1, 20:1-17, 24:15.6-24:18.5, 25:1-31:11, 31:12-17, 31:18, 34:29-35, 35:1-40:38.	1:1-5, 4:21.17-4:21.99, 6:13, 6:26-30, 8:11.9-8:11.99, 9:35, 10:20, 10:27, 11:9-10, 12:37.1-12:37.5, 12:50-51, 13:20, 15:19, 15:22.1-15:22.10, 15:27, 16:1, 17:1, 19:2.1-19:2.7, 34:1.6-34:1.99.

https://tanach.us/DH/DHSpecification.Exodus.xml

[Difflugia]

There had to have been a single common source for J, E, and P for Genesis and Exodus, given the sheer number of doublets and triplets.

I think this is true, or at least close enough. The "single common source" is cultural tradition, which changed as it spread across time and space like the telephone game.

So, in that case, what, if anything, do you think Moses had to do with this story as we have it? Was he the originator (oral? written?) of the story that later diverged into multiple traditions? Did he collect the traditions and write them down?

Yes, I believe Moses was involved and wrote it rather than passed it down orally.

In light of the single common source that became multiple traditions, what do you think this means? What you appear to be saying is that Moses collated and wrote down two different and conflicting traditions that nonetheless had a common source. He intertwined the two different stories in order to create a third that became canon. Is that what you mean? For at least Genesis 37:18-36, is Moses the person that proponents of the Documentary Hypothesis would call the JE Redactor?

So you and everyone else know where I'm going with this, so far, your position seems to flit between the traditional view from the OP, "Moses wrote it during the Exodus from Egypt, around the 15th or 13th century BC," and, "maybe Moses was somehow involved." If we're treating this as a debate, what do you think means you win?

[otseng]

There had to have been a single common source for J, E, and P for Genesis and Exodus, given the sheer number of doublets and triplets.

I think this is true, or at least close enough. The "single common source" is cultural tradition, which changed as it spread across time and space like the telephone game.

OK, good, we have agreement.

For purpose of debate, let's call the common source for JEPR to be O (origin). It could be from Moses, another person, or a group of people.

In light of the single common source that became multiple traditions, what do you think this means?

As far as I've read, I haven't seen anybody really going into this. So, it's new ground for exploration. I have my own theory and I'll slowly build my case for it.

What you appear to be saying is that Moses collated and wrote down two different and conflicting traditions that nonetheless had a common source. He intertwined the two different stories in order to create a third that became canon. Is that what you mean? For at least Genesis 37:18-36, is Moses the person that proponents of the Documentary Hypothesis would call the JE Redactor?

I don't really believe this, though it could've happened. I think the most parsimonious view would be he wrote a single account. The conflicts do not have to be what Moses wrote, but were issues of transmission, copying, interpretation, even biases from JEPR.

I don't know how many sources Moses used. But I doubt he also had the same mentality that JEPD had in considering their sources sacred and that Moses did his best to retain the original sources. Also most likely his sources were oral and he was the first to write the stories down.

So you and everyone else know where I'm going with this, so far, your position seems to flit between the traditional view from the OP, "Moses wrote it during the Exodus from Egypt, around the 15th or 13th century BC," and, "maybe Moses was somehow involved."

Yes, that's where I'm going with this.

If we're treating this as a debate, what do you think means you win?

I've never claimed victory in any of my debates. Rather, I present my evidence and arguments and let the readers be the judge of who won the debate.

[otseng]

The purposes of this book, therefore, are:
         1.   To present the largest collection of evidence ever assembled in one place concerning this hypothesis.
         2.   To make it possible to read each of the source texts individually, to see their artistry, their views of God, Israel, and humankind, and their connection to their moment in history.
         3.   To make it possible to see the steps in the Bible’s formation out of these sources.
         4.   To help readers appreciate that the whole is more than the sum of its parts. The Bible is a rich, complex, beautiful work as a result of the extraordinary way in which it was created.

Some comments about The Bible with Sources Revealed.

The book does not argue what is in the Torah is ahistorical and a mythical story. He also does not argue that Moses did not exist. So, I assert it is speculation that DH adherents claim that the Torah is ahistorical and that Moses did not exist. Given Friedman's arguments in the book, it is neutral whether the Torah is factual or a myth and it is written by Moses or not. To resolve these issues, we need to look outside the Torah and see where the evidence leads.

[Difflugia]

OK, good, we have agreement.

Unless you want to monologue, you're going to have to help me identify some areas for disagreement. If you just want a conversation that isn't a debate, I'm fine with that, too, but let me know that's what we're doing.

For purpose of debate, let's call the common source for JEPR to be O (origin). It could be from Moses, another person, or a group of people.

Just to be pedantic, we don't necessarily have the one common source, but we have at least one and so far, that's between J and E. There's definitely material that wasn't common between all four claimed sources, too. A concrete example is the "Holiness Code" in Leviticus and Numbers which is unique to P.

As far as I've read, I haven't seen anybody really going into this. So, it's new ground for exploration. I have my own theory and I'll slowly build my case for it.

If that's what you want to do, that's fine, but that's not a debate per se. There's a reason that forensic debates are built around yes/no questions. I'm not going to insist on that much formality, but I'm also not going to be debating against a question you either haven't defined or stacked to the point that I'm arguing against mere possibility. I mean, it's possible that Santa Claus wrote the Torah.

The two positions mentioned in the OP are that the Torah was written by Moses at least by the 12th century BC versus the Torah being post-exilic. If you're using "traditional view" narrowly, then we've already agreed that the first view is likely false. If you're using it broadly, then idenifying anything anachronistic from the point of view of the 12th century falsifies it. You've already said that you're changing the question and I'm fine with that, but if you'd like me to participate, you need to tell us what the question is.

"Moses wrote the Torah," is false. "It's possible that Moses wrote some of the Torah," is too broad to be interesting. If we're finding out slowly what your debate position is, expect it to be a monologue until that position emerges more fully. Let us know the shape you want the discussion to take.

[Difflugia]

Some comments about The Bible with Sources Revealed.

The book does not argue what is in the Torah is ahistorical and a mythical story. He also does not argue that Moses did not exist.

Friedman very definitely believes that Moses was real and much of Exodus is historical or based on historical material. He believes that some of the Priestly material is early, in particular what's in Exodus. He discusses early P in Who Wrote the Bible and contrasts it with Wellhausen's view that P is exilic or post-exilic. He lays out in his book Exodus that he thinks Moses was a real person leading a small band of Levites out of Egypt and that the story of the real Moses and a real exodus were embellished into the canonical Exodus. The views of Friedman vs. those of Wellhausen or Joel Baden would in themselves be interesting debates.

If anyone wants to read Wellhausen, I formatted Prolegomena to the History of Israel as an epub with hyperlinked footnotes. It's available for free download at mobileread.com.

[POI]

Being this topic is likely piggy-backed off of the "Exodus" thread, I will reiterate 2) points for serious consideration. Why? The inspiration for creating the previous topic was due to a statement Otseng had made (paraphrased) -- "If the Exodus did not really happen, then the Bible is not to be trusted". In moving forward, we must then ask ourselves in earnest... I see question 1) first needs to be addressed before asking if a Moses wrote the Torah? Why? Because we first need to establish if a Moses really existed before we can then logically ask what Moses did or did not directly contribute. As stated prior, as far as I'm concerned, if it should turn out a Moses did exist, then I would just likely reconcile that he had a part in authorship of the Torah. But this means little. Why? As stated in post #3 and #19, EVEN IF Moses really existed and there was evidence for an "Exodus", my view of the Bible would change little to none. Why? This storyline would then be thrown in with all the other claim(s) from the Bible, where we would still have to also believe the 'supernatural' parts (as well) -- to boot. And that is one tall order. I guess what I'm saying here, is that WHO actually wrote the Torah really only matters, if it should turn out Moses wrote none of it at all. Why? If the reason, for which he wrote none of it at all. is because he never really likely existed, then 'Houstin, we have a problem.'

1) In compared to other claimed characters from ancient antiquity, like Alexander the Great or Pilate for example, where exactly does the claim(s) for a Moses stack up on a "confidence-scale", (low, medium, high, other)? Being Moses is said to be a key figure in the claimed storyline, for him not to have really existed would seem to severely taint claims to Biblical veracity.

2) What is the likelihood an "Exodus" actually took place, as expressed from the Biblical account? Which would also include the 'supernatural' stuff? Think Spiderman analogy here, in that just because real events can be 'verified', does not then lend more credence to 'supernatural' claims as well, does it?

[POI]

Debate topic: Did Moses write the Torah?

No. I think the evidence points to multiple authors, and, as you noted, the scholarly consensus is against Mosaic authorship.

I'm just curious as to why Otseng skipped this response?

[Difflugia]

I see question 1) first needs to be addressed before asking if a Moses wrote the Torah? Why? Because we first need to establish if a Moses really existed before we can then logically ask what Moses did or did not directly contribute. As stated prior, as far as I'm concerned, if it should turn out a Moses did exist, then I would just likely reconcile that he had a part in authorship of the Torah.

You know, I'm in exactly the opposite camp. I don't think Moses was real, but I don't think it matters. No part of the Bible was composed in any form by Moses. There are too many anachronistic features of the text spread across the different authors for anything beyond vague legends to predate the ninth century or so. Whether Moses was real is an interesting question, but not a particularly important one. I think Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch is similar to Davidic authorship of Psalms or Solomon being the Qoheleth of Ecclesiastes: the tradition is that those individuals were involved, but everyone not already steeped in the tradition knows that they weren't.

2) What is the likelihood an "Exodus" actually took place, as expressed from the Biblical account? Which would also include the 'supernatural' stuff? Think Spiderman analogy here, in that just because real events can be 'verified', does not then lend more credence to 'supernatural' claims as well, does it?

I think this is an interesting part of the question. Friedman, for example, desperately needs a Moses because of how the Exodus fits into his personal Judaism. He's OK with a great deal of religious and political embellishment, but he personally needs an Exodus of some kind to be real. I find reading Friedman to be an interesting example of the dissonance between faith and scholarship played out in his writing. A fascinating counterpoint to his work in textual criticism is to read his Commentary on the Torah. He reconciles his scholarship and religion in part by believing that God had His hand in the final form of the Torah, despite the obvious presence of and influence by multiple authors through history. He sees no conflict in seeking the authorial intention of each human author, while also finding alternate messages in the final form as ultimately dictated by his very real god.

If you find the scholarship behind Old Testament textual criticism to be interesting, his Commentary is worth reading, along with Exodus, to get a feel for how his faith affects his scholarship. They're likewise worth reading if, like me, you're fascinated with the intersection of faith, scholarship, and evidence.