Atheism cannot be wrong

[Ray the atheist]

Preamble:

What can I possibly mean by that?
Notice that the title is about Atheism, and not Atheists..
I will be making that quite plain below

But first….

Definitions:

Atheism:

A lack of belief in gods.
Atheism is an expression of a disbelief.
When I say that I'm an atheist, I am expressing my disbelief, I'm not making a claim that the god isn't real.
It might be real, I might be mistaken, your god might be real, but as an atheist, I just don't believe it.

Theism:

A belief in at least one god.
Theism is an expression of belief. When I say that I'm a theist, I'm expressing my belief that at least one god exists. My god might not be real. I might be mistaken. But as a theist, I believe that my god is real.

_________________________

Atheism isn't a moral claim:

Atheism cannot be morally wrong, as in “evil,” and it cannot be morally right, as in “good.”

Atheism isn't a truth claim:

Atheism cannot be factually wrong, as in “false,” and it cannot be factually right, as in “true.”

It cannot be factually or morally wrong to express a belief, or a disbelief.

So, atheism cannot be logically wrong, and it cannot be morally wrong.
______________________________

I am making the STRONG distinction here between "atheism" and "atheist".

Atheists can and do have moral and factual judgments of claims.. For example, I am very willing to discuss my conclusions about Christianity and all theism in general.

Atheists and Atheism are not identical.
The first means people who do not believe in gods, and the second is the position of a non-belief in gods.

I will remind you of that at the end of my preamble.
The distinction is crucial.

______________________________

Here is an example of a short conversation to explain what that means:

Christian : Hi.
Atheist: I don't believe in your god.
Christian: Is atheism making the truth claim that "there are no gods"?
Atheist: No.
Christian: Is atheism making the claim that Atheism is correct?
Atheist: No.
Christian: Is atheism making a truth claim?
Atheist: No. Atheism itself makes no truth claim. “I don't believe in your god” describes my mental state, not a claim about whether your god exists.

As you can see, the only claim that an atheist needs to make is that "I don't believe in your god".

_________________________

As to morality, it's the same deal:

Christian: Hi.
Atheist: I don't follow your morality.
Christian: Are you claiming that my morality is evil?
Atheist: Atheism itself makes no moral claims. I have my own, personal opinions, though.
Christian: Does atheism claim the moral high ground?
Atheist: No.
Christian: When it comes to morality, what ARE you claiming?
Atheist: Atheism does not make a moral claim. I'm simply saying that I don't follow your morality, and I can explain why.
________________________________________

The atheist in these conversations isn't making a truth claim about the existence of your God, and it's not making a moral claim about your God, your religion, or yourself.

“I don't believe X” does not logically entail “I believe not-X.”

Example: “I don't believe extraterrestrial life exists” does not mean “I believe extraterrestrial life does not exist.”

Christians should be aware of what most modern atheists are saying because it would save us all a lot of time.

Pew provides useful evidence. In 2019, 97% of self-described atheists defined atheist as someone who does not believe in God, rather than explicitly claiming God does not exist.

This 97% can be noticed across most social media, including reddit atheists. Very few atheists insist that they know there is no God. .. It would be nice if reddit allowed for polls, we could make a quick test of what atheists actually claim.

So, if you can accept that we aren't making any truth claim or moral claim, then, atheism can't be factually or morally wrong.

Remember, that I'm not talking about my personal position on Christianity as the truth, nor am I talking about my personal position on Christianity as morally righteous.

Those would be my personal opinions, not the meaning of atheism.


The Argument:

P1: Non-belief in X does not entail a factual or moral claim about X.
P2: Atheism, understood as non-belief, is non-belief in gods.

C: Therefore, atheism cannot be factually or morally wrong.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to bluegreenearth in post #115]

If applying the "agnostic" label is the only way you will properly understand the position of people who lack belief in the claim that a god exists, then why not just substitute the "atheist" label with the "agnostic" label in your mind when you encounter those individuals? Is the arbitrary category label really more important to you than the person's actual position?

AGNOSTIC
Merriam-Webster Definition 1:
"a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (such as a supreme being) is unknown and probably unknowable"

So the agnostic believes that the existence of a god or gods is unknown and probably unknowable while the atheist believes that no gods exist.

The distinction is not arbitrary.

[bluegreenearth]

[Replying to bluegreenearth in post #115]

If applying the "agnostic" label is the only way you will properly understand the position of people who lack belief in the claim that a god exists, then why not just substitute the "atheist" label with the "agnostic" label in your mind when you encounter those individuals? Is the arbitrary category label really more important to you than the person's actual position?

AGNOSTIC
Merriam-Webster Definition 1:
"a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (such as a supreme being) is unknown and probably unknowable"

So the agnostic believes that the existence of a god or gods is unknown and probably unknowable while the atheist believes that no gods exist.

The distinction is not arbitrary.

You misunderstood my recommendation and what was meant by the term "arbitrary." When you encounter people who indicate that they lack belief in the claim that a god exists, why do you feel it is more important to argue with them about the meaning of the arbitrary labels "atheist" and "agnostic" than the actual position they are holding? If, according to your understanding, the people who identify themselves as "atheist" are more accurately identified as "agnostic," then just think of them as being agnostics and move on.

[Clownboat]

You misunderstood my recommendation and what was meant by the term "arbitrary." When you encounter people who indicate that they lack belief in the claim that a god exists, why do you feel it is more important to argue with them about the meaning of the arbitrary labels "atheist" and "agnostic" than the actual position they are holding? If, according to your understanding, the people who identify themselves as "atheist" are more accurately identified as "agnostic," then just think of them as being agnostics and move on.

It seems to me that some Christians are not interested in understanding the atheist position.

Why I believe this to be the case:
Someone that lacks understanding or isn't convinced by the available evidence for string theory is fully justified to withhold belief in said theory.
This person doesn't necessarily believe that string theory is false.
Someone that lacks understanding or isn't convinced by the available evidence for a god concept is fully justified to withhold belief in said god concept.
This person doesn't necessarily believe that said god concept is false.

If the above cannot be shown to be illogical or false, then I submit that it stands as true that some Christians are just set on being able to view atheists as an enemy of their preferred god. This allows them to have a 'boogeyman' for the group to unite against (motive).

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #133]

You misunderstood my recommendation and what was meant by the term "arbitrary." When you encounter people who indicate that they lack belief in the claim that a god exists, why do you feel it is more important to argue with them about the meaning of the arbitrary labels "atheist" and "agnostic" than the actual position they are holding? If, according to your understanding, the people who identify themselves as "atheist" are more accurately identified as "agnostic," then just think of them as being agnostics and move on.

It seems to me that some Christians are not interested in understanding the atheist position.

It seems to me that anyone who raises an issue with atheists is arbitrarily dumped under the label "Christian".

[bluegreenearth]

It seems to me that some Christians are not interested in understanding the atheist position.

It seems to me that anyone who raises an issue with atheists is arbitrarily dumped under the label "Christian".

When you inform the atheists who mislabel you as "Christian" that you do not believe in Christianity, how many of them insist that you do believe in Christianity and how many of them ask you what your belief is?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to bluegreenearth in post #135]

When you inform the atheists who mislabel you as "Christian" that you do not believe in Christianity, how many of them insist that you do believe in Christianity and how many of them ask you what your belief is?

If I state that I do not believe in Christianity, I'm stating my belief that Christian theology is untenable.

[Clownboat]

If I state that I do not believe in Christianity, I'm stating my belief that Christian theology is untenable.

Do you acknowledge the truth of these words below or do you contest them?

Someone that lacks understanding or isn't convinced by the available evidence for string theory is fully justified to withhold belief in said theory.
This person doesn't necessarily believe that string theory is false nor are they claiming that string theory is untenable.
Someone that lacks understanding or isn't convinced by the available evidence for a god concept is fully justified to withhold belief in said god concept.
This person doesn't necessarily believe that said god concept is false nor are they claiming that said god concept is untenable.

[bluegreenearth]

[Replying to bluegreenearth in post #135]

When you inform the atheists who mislabel you as "Christian" that you do not believe in Christianity, how many of them insist that you do believe in Christianity and how many of them ask you what your belief is?

If I state that I do not believe in Christianity, I'm stating my belief that Christian theology is untenable.

Understood. When some atheists state that they lack belief in Christianity, they're stating their belief that Christian theology is unfalsifiable. When people believe a claim is unfalsifiable, does that necessarily mean they believe the claim is false?

[Vilferatus]

Understood. When some atheists state that they lack belief in Christianity, they're stating their belief that Christian theology is unfalsifiable. When people believe a claim is unfalsifiable, does that necessarily mean they believe the claim is false?

Of course not... if something is not falsable you can not claim it is false, if you do that it would be a fallacy. So, yes you and Clown are correct there, Athotheist is wrong in this statement: "If I state that I do not believe in Christianity, I'm stating my belief that Christian theology is untenable."

It doesnt necessarily means that.

But what you are not getting from his comments is that he understands the distinction between and an atheist and an agnostic. You are mixing both.

You say you are an agnostic atheist and saying atheist means agnostic, wihc doesnt makes sense, becuase if you truly believe agnostic means atheist, then you wouldnt say: "Agnostic atheist" you would only say agnostic.

You guys (clowboat and you) are playing dumb here to create confusion, the problem is you are too good at it.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #137]

Do you acknowledge the truth of these words below or do you contest them?

Someone that lacks understanding or isn't convinced by the available evidence for string theory is fully justified to withhold belief in said theory.
This person doesn't necessarily believe that string theory is false nor are they claiming that string theory is untenable.

AGNOSTIC
Merriam-Webster Definition 2:
"a person who is unwilling to commit to an opinion about something"

Such a person is agnostic toward string theory.

Same with a god concept.