Which came first, religion or politics?
Was religion formed as a response to organized political need for control and conformity or did the rise of organized religion require certain kinds of political leaders to advertise and run it? Or did they arise more or less in unison - perhaps independent of each other?
I think this is a bit tougher than it appears at first glance if you consider documented religious experiences date back tens of thousands of years.....
Which came first religion or politics?
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Post #11
The wolf "top-dog" or chimp Godfather is political and an abstract idea, because a variable ranking of similar-looking animals in each pack is conceptual, not simple shape-image. Thus politics and religion are equally abstract power-games. In Bible terms, Nimrod the hunting-man became Marduk / Merodach god of Babylon, evidently ("NIMRODach"?), and king of Babel etc. The animal theme continues in national symbols, as UK unicorn and lion, US eagle with olives-and-arrows. And the political state has religious aspects.
chimera
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Re: Which came first religion or politics?
Post #12Naturally, it all depends on the definition of politics. This seems the most relevant that I found at dictionary.com.Cmass wrote:Which came first, religion or politics?
Was religion formed as a response to organized political need for control and conformity or did the rise of organized religion require certain kinds of political leaders to advertise and run it? Or did they arise more or less in unison - perhaps independent of each other?
I think this is a bit tougher than it appears at first glance if you consider documented religious experiences date back tens of thousands of years.....
My opinion is that this definition and others I found seemed to imply a level of organization/hierarchy beyond the tribal and certainly beyond alpha male/female pack organization mentioned for animals. If the above definition is used, then politics would certainly come after animistic religions and earth mother Gaea type religions which date back to the Stone Age. If politics simply means any means of organizing a group of people into a hierarchy, then it probably predates religion since simple tribal organizations are a development of the aforementioned alpha male/female pack organization.pol·i·tics
The art or science of government or governing, especially the governing of a political entity, such as a nation, and the administration and control of its internal and external affairs
Post #13
PFFFFT!chimera wrote:The wolf "top-dog" or chimp Godfather is political and an abstract idea, because a variable ranking of similar-looking animals in each pack is conceptual, not simple shape-image. Thus politics and religion are equally abstract power-games. In Bible terms, Nimrod the hunting-man became Marduk / Merodach god of Babylon, evidently ("NIMRODach"?), and king of Babel etc. The animal theme continues in national symbols, as UK unicorn and lion, US eagle with olives-and-arrows. And the political state has religious aspects.
chimera
Most animals distinguish each other via smell and vocalizations, as completely concrete as visual identification is with humans. In animal societies, power is action and attitude. Hardly an abstract idea.
Every concept that can ever be needed will be expressed by exactly one word, with its meaning rigidly defined and all its subsidiary meanings forgotten. -- George Orwell, 1984
Post #14
The physical dominance is expressed as you say by attitude. The neck-angle, ear-position or height-posture are not themselves forceful, but symbolic of past proof of dominance. Thus abstract.
Group religion and political power began as the same thing. Priests and chiefs mutually established legitimacy for their own dominance, for personal and materialistic self-interest. Clothing and architecture were abstract enforcers of proven dominance.
chimera
Group religion and political power began as the same thing. Priests and chiefs mutually established legitimacy for their own dominance, for personal and materialistic self-interest. Clothing and architecture were abstract enforcers of proven dominance.
chimera
Post #16
At the earliest dawn of mankind, whoever was most capable to hunt, fight or breed would rule the most primitive of societies. Religion was in many ways a means as to get more intelligent/insightful people in charge, perhaps higher in merit than mere animals. Those that could bind at whole tribe's faiths into one administrative body were obvioulsy some of the sharper tools in the box. At the dawn of civilised man, Religion served as to grant more brainy people commanding positions. Considering that advanced politics stemmed from intelligent rulers, Religion can be in part thanked for the formulation of modern society.
Religion came before and founded intelligent politics as we know it. It the concept had never been considered by our ancestors, intelligence and creativity may never have come into the human perspecive. Without the manipulation wrought by religion, humanity's rulers would still be primitive beasts with no other function other to carry out the most simple or survival tasks.
Religion came before and founded intelligent politics as we know it. It the concept had never been considered by our ancestors, intelligence and creativity may never have come into the human perspecive. Without the manipulation wrought by religion, humanity's rulers would still be primitive beasts with no other function other to carry out the most simple or survival tasks.