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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:28 pm
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Answering the Quranist Calamity

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In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful

All praise is due to Allah, we praise Him, seek His aid and His forgiveness. We seek refuge with Allah from the evil of our souls, and the evil of our actions. Whomsoever Allah wishes to guide, there is none to guide, and whomsoever Allah leaves astray, there is none to guide. I bear witness that there is none worthy of worship except Allah, who is One and without any partner, and I bear witness that Muhammad is His slave and messenger.

One of the greatest trials of our time is the emergence of the group known as the Quraniyoon or Quranists. Their distinctive feature is rejection of the Sunnah, the way of the Prophet Muhammad (Sallallahu alaihi wa salaam). Orthodox Sunni Islam teaches that Islam is based on two sources of divine guidance, the Book of Allah (The Holy Quran), and the Way of the Prophet (the Sunnah). The Quranist claim to follow the Quran-only and have no regard for the Sunnah of the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa salam).

Therefore, in order to effectively answer this doubt, recourse will have to be taken to the Holy Quran itself to determine which side is upon the truth and which is upon falsehood.

Allah Glorified and Exalted is He, says in the Holy Quran: (We sent them) with Clear Signs and Scriptures; and We have sent down unto thee (O Muhammad) the Reminder (meaning the Quran); that thou may explain clearly to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought (an Nahl 16:44)

In this verse, Allah says that He gave to the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa salam) the Reminder, meaning the Quran, as this is one of its other names (refer to Quran, chapter 29, verse 51). Than Allah goes on to say that the reason for this is so that you, meaning Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa salam) may explain its meaning to mankind and so that they may give thought to it. So it is established that one of the obligations of the Prophet is to explain the Quran, not merely to convey its contents, but to explain its meaning.

Question to "Quranists": If you reject the sunnah and ahadeeth narrated from our Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa salam), what is your source for the explanation of the Quran by the Prophet??

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:44 pm
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Allah Most High says in the Holy Quran: "He who obeys the Messenger (Muhammad), obeys Allah" (an Nisa 4:80)

In this noble verse of the Quran, Allah commands the Believers to obey the Messenger Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa salam).

Question to "Quranists": Since the Holy Quran contains nothing but the direct commands of Allah Most High, on what basis can someone obey the Messenger? Since you reject the Sunnah and ahadeeth, which contain the orders of the Messenger from his own mouth, how can you make sense of this verse which is telling the believers to obey the Messenger, for indeed obedience to the Messenger is in reality obedience to Allah.

Now I will quote an entire passage of the Quran (several verses in proper context) which will demolish the entire Quranist argument.

Allah says: "Your Companion is neither astray nor being misled" (an Najm 53:2)

In addressing the Believers, Allah explains that their companion, meaning Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa salam) is neither astray nor being misled, but rather he is upon the correct guidance and the straight path.

Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) desire (chapter 53, verse 3)

Than Allah mentions that he (Muhammad) does not speak out of his desire. Remember this point clearly, Allah is referring to the speech or sayings of Muhammad (Sallallahu alaihi wa salam).

It is no less than inspiration sent down to him (chapter 53, verse 4)

In this next verse Allah confirms that the sayings of our Prophet are not from his own desires, his own intellect or thinking, but rather it is nothing but divine inspiration sent down to him. The word used here is Wahy which means revelation.

Now the question for the Quranists, since the Holy Quran is the word and speech of Allah, this verse is clearly indicating that there is an additional revelation which Allah has given emanating from the tongue of our beloved Prophet (Sallallahu alaihi wa salam), meaning the ahadeeth, his sayings.

Conclusion: The Holy Quran confirms the status of the Sunnah and ahadeeth, to deny the sunnah is to deny the Quran as well.

O YE WHO BELIEVE! OBEY ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER, AND TURN NOT AWAY FROM HIM (MUHAMMAD) WHEN YOU HEAR (HIM SPEAK) (Quran, chapter 8, verse 20)

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:05 pm
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First of all when we want to debate a topic from the Koran, we look at ALL the verses relating to the subject in discussion. Lets look at what the Koran says about itself:


25.33. And no question do they bring to thee but We reveal to thee the truth and the best explanation (thereof).

17.89. And We have explained to man, in this Qur'an, every kind of similitude: yet the greater part of men refuse except with ingratitude!

39.27. We have put forth for men, in this Qur'an every kind of Parable, in order that they may receive admonition

16.89. One day We shall raise from all Peoples a witness against them, from amongst themselves: and We shall bring thee as a witness against these (thy people): and We have sent down to thee the Book explaining all things, a Guide, a Mercy, and Glad Tidings to Muslims

6.114. Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than God. - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

12.111. There is, in their stories, instruction for men endued with understanding. It is not a tale invented, but a confirmation of what went before it,- a detailed exposition of all things, and a guide and a mercy to any such as believe.

17.12. We have made the Night and the Day as two Signs: the Sign of the Night have We obscured, while the Sign of the Day We have made to enlighten you; that ye may seek bounty from your Lord, and that ye may know the number and count of the years: all things have We explained in detail.

44.2-3 By the Book that makes things clear;- We sent it down during a Blessed Night: for We wish to warn,

6.38. There is not an animal on the earth, nor a being that flies on its wings, but are communities like you. Nothing have we omitted from the Book, and they shall be gathered to their Lord in the end.

The Koran is fully detailed, an explanation of all things, parable and similtude and nothing have been omited from it.

15:9 Indeed it is We who have sent down the reminder, and indeed it is We who will preserve it.

41.42. No falsehood can approach it from before or behind it: It is sent down by One Full of Wisdom, Worthy of all Praise.

59.21. Had We sent down this Qur'an on a mountain, verily, thou wouldst have seen it humble itself and cleave asunder for fear of God. Such are the similitudes which We propound to men, that they may reflect.

There is nothing like it.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:44 pm
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The problem is that you cannot effectively respond to me addressing the verses I quoted. First address the verses I have referenced and than bring other verses to strengthen your argument.

All of the verses you brought up are basically making this point that the Holy Quran is a fully detailed Book and nothing has been left out of it. We also believe this, that the Holy Quran has addressed all the principles and fundamentals of Islamic philosophy, including the principle that its explanation is upon the Messenger (Sallallahu alaihi wa salam).

The Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa salam) whenever he passed a judgment, even if it cannot be found exactly in the Quran, proclaimed that such a judgment is in accordance with the Book of Allah. That is because the Book of Allah gives him authority to pass such judgments in no less than 24 verses:

Say: "obey Allah and His messenger: But if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith (3:32)

And obey Allah and the messenger. that ye may obtain mercy. (3:132)

Those are limits set by Allah. those who obey Allah and His messenger will be admitted to Gardens with rivers flowing beneath, to abide therein (for ever) and that will be the supreme achievement. (4:13)

But those who disobey Allah and His messenger and transgress His limits will be admitted to a Fire, to abide therein: And they shall have a humiliating punishment (4:14)

O ye who believe! obey Allah, and obey the messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination (4:59)

He who obeys the messenger, obeys Allah (4:80)

obey Allah, and obey the messenger, and beware (of evil) (5:92)

obey Allah and His messenger, if ye do believe. (8:1)

O ye who believe! obey Allah and His messenger, and turn not away from him when ye hear (him speak). (8:20)

This is just the tip of the iceberg, but you see how much emphasis the Quran makes on not only obeying Allah through the Quran, but also obeying His Messenger through the Sunnah.

And finally, Allah says in the Quran that you cannot be a true believer until you make Muhammad (Sallallahu alaihi wa salam) the judge of all your disputes, and until you accept his decisions without any resistance, but with fullest conviction and contentment:

But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) faith, until they make thee (O Muhammad) judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction. (An-Nisa 4:65)

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:05 pm
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Ilias Ahmad wrote:
The problem is that you cannot effectively respond to me addressing the verses I quoted. First address the verses I have referenced and than bring other verses to strengthen your argument.

All of the verses you brought up are basically making this point that the Holy Quran is a fully detailed Book and nothing has been left out of it. We also believe this, that the Holy Quran has addressed all the principles and fundamentals of Islamic philosophy, including the principle that its explanation is upon the Messenger (Sallallahu alaihi wa salam).

The Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa salam) whenever he passed a judgment, even if it cannot be found exactly in the Quran, proclaimed that such a judgment is in accordance with the Book of Allah. That is because the Book of Allah gives him authority to pass such judgments in no less than 24 verses:

Say: "obey Allah and His messenger: But if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith (3:32)

And obey Allah and the messenger. that ye may obtain mercy. (3:132)

Those are limits set by Allah. those who obey Allah and His messenger will be admitted to Gardens with rivers flowing beneath, to abide therein (for ever) and that will be the supreme achievement. (4:13)

But those who disobey Allah and His messenger and transgress His limits will be admitted to a Fire, to abide therein: And they shall have a humiliating punishment (4:14)


O ye who believe! obey Allah, and obey the messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination (4:59)

He who obeys the messenger, obeys Allah (4:80)

obey Allah, and obey the messenger, and beware (of evil) (5:92)

obey Allah and His messenger, if ye do believe. (8:1)

O ye who believe! obey Allah and His messenger, and turn not away from him when ye hear (him speak). (8:20)

This is just the tip of the iceberg, but you see how much emphasis the Quran makes on not only obeying Allah through the Quran, but also obeying His Messenger through the Sunnah.

And finally, Allah says in the Quran that you cannot be a true believer until you make Muhammad (Sallallahu alaihi wa salam) the judge of all your disputes, and until you accept his decisions without any resistance, but with fullest conviction and contentment:

But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) faith, until they make thee (O Muhammad) judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction. (An-Nisa 4:65)


You don't seem to know the difference between messenger and prophet. These verses confirm that whoever obeys the messenger is obeying God since the messenger is reciting the verses of the Koran and its not from himself as the pagans and some of the Jews and some of the christians believe. You need to research the way the Koran uses messenger(rasool) and the way it uses prophet(nabi).

Second the Koran talks about many prophets and messengers and talks about them having to be obeyed. Yet its only muhammad's sunnah you follow, what about the others. The Koran says we should not differentiate between them, yet Sunnis regularly differentiate between them and even say Muhammad abrogated the ones before it. The kOran says we follow the teachings of Moses and Jesus as found in the previous scriptures, yet we don't see any of that from Sunnis. You seem to isolate muhammad from the others. The Koran never intended us to follow anything OUTSIDE the Koran. Neither the prophets nor his companions ever compiled anything but the koran. And if you accept the verses of the Koran that it is fully detailed and nothing have been omited, why are you following other sources compiled 2 centuries after him that he never auithorized to be compiled or even recorded and passed along to future generations.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:36 pm
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These verses confirm that whoever obeys the messenger is obeying God since the messenger is reciting the verses of the Koran and its not from himself as the pagans and some of the Jews and some of the christians believe.


This is complete stupidity. How is listening to the Messenger (sallallahu alaihi wa salam) merely reciting the Quran equivalent to obedience to him? It is completely illogical. If I read a book to you, and you are listening to me read that book, how does it mean you are obeying me?

Obedience to the ordinances of the Holy Quran is direct obedience to Allah holy and exalted is He. This is because the Holy Quran is nothing but the Words of Allah.

However, obedience to the Messenger (sallallahu alaihi wa salam) must stem from something which is the words of the Messenger, (the hadith). This is only logical. Obeying the Messenger is indirect obedience to Allah, as mentioned in the Quran: He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah (4:80)

So when Allah commands to obey the Messenger, in reality, obedience to the Messenger becomes obedience to Allah. A very simple concept, even a 3 year old girl can understand.

Quote:
Second the Koran talks about many prophets and messengers and talks about them having to be obeyed. Yet its only muhammad's sunnah you follow, what about the others. The Koran says we should not differentiate between them, yet Sunnis regularly differentiate between them and even say Muhammad abrogated the ones before it. The kOran says we follow the teachings of Moses and Jesus as found in the previous scriptures, yet we don't see any of that from Sunnis. You seem to isolate muhammad from the others.


Where does the Quran say for us to obey any other prophet other than Prophet Muhammad (Sallallahu alaihi wa salam)?? Was the Quran revealed to Moses or Jesus? The Quran was revealed to Muhammad. No doubt we respect all 124 thousand prophets whom Allah sent, but Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa salam) possesses two unique qualities, he is the last and final prophet (33:40), and he has been sent for all mankind: We sent thee not (O Muhammad), but as a Mercy for all creatures. (21:107)

So this quality of Rahmatan lil'alameen (mercy for all the worlds) is an exclusive attribute of our Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa salam), and not of any other prophet. All other prophets were sent to a particular tribe or nation. Most of the Prophets mentioned in the Quran were sent for the children of Israel, like Moses and Jesus. Other prophets, like Hud and Salih were sent for their particular tribes, Thamud and Ad.

When the Quran says not to differentiate between the Prophets, it is regarding their truthfulness and authentity of their claims. A Muslim must believe in all prophets. However, the particular message or law of a prophet is limited to a specific place and time, with the exception of Muhammad (Sallallahu alaihi wa salam), whom the Quran calls the Seal of the Prophets (33:40), no other prophet bears this distinct honor of being the seal of all prophets.

As for the Torah, Pslams, Gospel and all other scriptures, they have been abrogated (in terms of the applicability of their laws) by the revelation of the final scripture, the Holy Quran: None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things? (Al Baqarah 2:106)

Quote:
The Koran never intended us to follow anything OUTSIDE the Koran. Neither the prophets nor his companions ever compiled anything but the koran. And if you accept the verses of the Koran that it is fully detailed and nothing have been omited, why are you following other sources compiled 2 centuries after him that he never auithorized to be compiled or even recorded and passed along to future generations.


I have already disproved your argument, the Quran says to obey the Messenger in countless verses, it says to hear and obey him when he speaks (8:20), a direct reference to the hadith. It says that when he speaks, he is not speaking from himself, but rather God is giving him instructions in the form of divine inspiration (53:4), and it says that the Believers should refer all their disputes to the Messenger for judgment (4:65). All of this is clear evidence from the Quran itself that the Sunnah, the way of the Prophet, is an authority alongside the Quran. The Quran itself says those who reject the judgment of the Prophet (Sallallahu alaihi wa salam) do not have faith, are are thus excluded from the fold of Islam. Please do not jeopardize your faith and risk a severe punishment from Allah for following your desires and rejecting the final revelation (The Holy Quran).

You talk about how the hadith were formed some two centuries after the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa salam) died. What you fail to understand is that the hadith are the oral sayings of the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa salam) which were always considered a source of judgment and guidance throughout his own life, as well as the life of his companions. Yes, it was some two hundred years later, when there was a danger that these oral sayings may not be preserved, that the need arose for them to be compiled in text form. Why can't Quranists understand such a simple concept?

Take, for example, the analogy of writing a biography of someone after he has already died. If such a biography is based on oral accounts given by the subject's family, friends and those who knew him, can you honestly say that the written biography of that person was written after he died and therefore is not a reliable account? No reasonable person would accept such an absurd premise.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Tue Jul 08, 2008 1:04 am
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Ilias Ahmad wrote:
Quote:
These verses confirm that whoever obeys the messenger is obeying God since the messenger is reciting the verses of the Koran and its not from himself as the pagans and some of the Jews and some of the christians believe.


This is complete stupidity. How is listening to the Messenger (sallallahu alaihi wa salam) merely reciting the Quran equivalent to obedience to him? It is completely illogical. If I read a book to you, and you are listening to me read that book, how does it mean you are obeying me?

Obedience to the ordinances of the Holy Quran is direct obedience to Allah holy and exalted is He. This is because the Holy Quran is nothing but the Words of Allah.

However, obedience to the Messenger (sallallahu alaihi wa salam) must stem from something which is the words of the Messenger, (the hadith). This is only logical. Obeying the Messenger is indirect obedience to Allah, as mentioned in the Quran: He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah (4:80)

So when Allah commands to obey the Messenger, in reality, obedience to the Messenger becomes obedience to Allah. A very simple concept, even a 3 year old girl can understand.

Quote:
Second the Koran talks about many prophets and messengers and talks about them having to be obeyed. Yet its only muhammad's sunnah you follow, what about the others. The Koran says we should not differentiate between them, yet Sunnis regularly differentiate between them and even say Muhammad abrogated the ones before it. The kOran says we follow the teachings of Moses and Jesus as found in the previous scriptures, yet we don't see any of that from Sunnis. You seem to isolate muhammad from the others.


Where does the Quran say for us to obey any other prophet other than Prophet Muhammad (Sallallahu alaihi wa salam)?? Was the Quran revealed to Moses or Jesus? The Quran was revealed to Muhammad. No doubt we respect all 124 thousand prophets whom Allah sent, but Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa salam) possesses two unique qualities, he is the last and final prophet (33:40), and he has been sent for all mankind: We sent thee not (O Muhammad), but as a Mercy for all creatures. (21:107)

So this quality of Rahmatan lil'alameen (mercy for all the worlds) is an exclusive attribute of our Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa salam), and not of any other prophet. All other prophets were sent to a particular tribe or nation. Most of the Prophets mentioned in the Quran were sent for the children of Israel, like Moses and Jesus. Other prophets, like Hud and Salih were sent for their particular tribes, Thamud and Ad.

When the Quran says not to differentiate between the Prophets, it is regarding their truthfulness and authentity of their claims. A Muslim must believe in all prophets. However, the particular message or law of a prophet is limited to a specific place and time, with the exception of Muhammad (Sallallahu alaihi wa salam), whom the Quran calls the Seal of the Prophets (33:40), no other prophet bears this distinct honor of being the seal of all prophets.

As for the Torah, Pslams, Gospel and all other scriptures, they have been abrogated (in terms of the applicability of their laws) by the revelation of the final scripture, the Holy Quran: None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things? (Al Baqarah 2:106)

Quote:
The Koran never intended us to follow anything OUTSIDE the Koran. Neither the prophets nor his companions ever compiled anything but the koran. And if you accept the verses of the Koran that it is fully detailed and nothing have been omited, why are you following other sources compiled 2 centuries after him that he never auithorized to be compiled or even recorded and passed along to future generations.


I have already disproved your argument, the Quran says to obey the Messenger in countless verses, it says to hear and obey him when he speaks (8:20), a direct reference to the hadith. It says that when he speaks, he is not speaking from himself, but rather God is giving him instructions in the form of divine inspiration (53:4), and it says that the Believers should refer all their disputes to the Messenger for judgment (4:65). All of this is clear evidence from the Quran itself that the Sunnah, the way of the Prophet, is an authority alongside the Quran. The Quran itself says those who reject the judgment of the Prophet (Sallallahu alaihi wa salam) do not have faith, are are thus excluded from the fold of Islam. Please do not jeopardize your faith and risk a severe punishment from Allah for following your desires and rejecting the final revelation (The Holy Quran).

You talk about how the hadith were formed some two centuries after the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa salam) died. What you fail to understand is that the hadith are the oral sayings of the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa salam) which were always considered a source of judgment and guidance throughout his own life, as well as the life of his companions. Yes, it was some two hundred years later, when there was a danger that these oral sayings may not be preserved, that the need arose for them to be compiled in text form. Why can't Quranists understand such a simple concept?

Take, for example, the analogy of writing a biography of someone after he has already died. If such a biography is based on oral accounts given by the subject's family, friends and those who knew him, can you honestly say that the written biography of that person was written after he died and therefore is not a reliable account? No reasonable person would accept such an absurd premise.


Al-Shuara(the poets) Chapter

105 The people of Noah rejected the apostles.

106 Behold, their brother Noah said to them: "Will ye not fear (Allah)?

107 "I am to you an apostle worthy of all trust:

108 "So fear Allah, and obey me.

109 "No reward do I ask of you for it: my reward is only from the Lord of the Worlds:

110 "So fear Allah, and obey me."

123 The 'Ad (people) rejected the apostles.

124 Behold, their brother Hud said to them: "Will ye not fear (Allah)?

125 "I am to you an apostle worthy of all trust:

126 "So fear Allah and obey me.

127 "No reward do I ask of you for it: my reward is only from the Lord of the Worlds.

128 "Do ye build a landmark on every high place to amuse yourselves?

129 "And do ye get for yourselves fine buildings in the hope of living therein (for ever)?

130 "And when ye exert your strong hand, do ye do it like men of absolute power?

131 "Now fear Allah, and obey me.

141 The Thamud (people) rejected the apostles.

142 Behold, their brother Salih said to them: "Will you not fear (Allah)?

143 "I am to you an apostle worthy of all trust.

144 "So fear Allah, and obey me.

145 "No reward do I ask of you for it: my reward is only from the Lord of the Worlds.

146 "Will ye be left secure, in (the enjoyment of) all that ye have here?-

147 "Gardens and Springs,

148 "And corn-fields and date-palms with spathes near breaking (with the weight of fruit)?

149 "And ye carve houses out of (rocky) mountains with great skill.

150 "But fear Allah and obey me;


160 The people of Lut rejected the apostles.

161 Behold, their brother Lut said to them: "Will ye not fear (Allah)?

162 "I am to you an apostle worthy of all trust.

163 "So fear Allah and obey me.


176 The Companions of the Wood rejected the apostles.

177 Behold, Shu'aib said to them: "Will ye not fear (Allah)?

178 "I am to you an apostle worthy of all trust.

179 "So fear Allah and obey me.

All the prohets were sent to be obeyed. Muhammad was no different, you made him different.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 8: Tue Jul 08, 2008 1:16 am
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You are a very stupid person. Look at the first verse you quoted:

Quote:
105 The people of Noah rejected the apostles.


Tell me what does Qawmu Noohin mean and who is it referring to. Abdullah Yusuf Ali and others have translated it to mean "the people of Noah". So who are the people of Noah? Who was he sent to? Was he sent for all time like our beloved Prophet Muhammad (Sallallahu alaihi wa salam) or not? Yes we believe in Noah (alaihi salam) as a righteous Prophet and Messenger of God. Tell me, how do we obey Noah? What law did he bring that we must obey? According to the Torah he brought seven laws, known as the Seven Noachide laws. According to the same Torah, these laws were abrogated by the 613 Laws of Moses for the Israelites. So how can you deny abrogation, when its in the Torah. The law of Moses abrogated the law of Noah, and the law of Muhammad (Sallallahu alaihi wa salam) has abrogated the law of Moses.

None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things? (Quran 2:106)

So please do not quote passages from the Quran out of context or try to distort their meaning. The verses about obeying Noah (alaihi salam) is in the context of the Qawmu Noohin (the people of Noah), not the People of Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa salam).

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 9: Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:15 am
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Ilias Ahmad wrote:
You are a very stupid person. Look at the first verse you quoted:

Quote:
105 The people of Noah rejected the apostles.


Tell me what does Qawmu Noohin mean and who is it referring to. Abdullah Yusuf Ali and others have translated it to mean "the people of Noah". So who are the people of Noah? Who was he sent to? Was he sent for all time like our beloved Prophet Muhammad (Sallallahu alaihi wa salam) or not? Yes we believe in Noah (alaihi salam) as a righteous Prophet and Messenger of God. Tell me, how do we obey Noah? What law did he bring that we must obey? According to the Torah he brought seven laws, known as the Seven Noachide laws. According to the same Torah, these laws were abrogated by the 613 Laws of Moses for the Israelites. So how can you deny abrogation, when its in the Torah. The law of Moses abrogated the law of Noah, and the law of Muhammad (Sallallahu alaihi wa salam) has abrogated the law of Moses.

None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things? (Quran 2:106)

So please do not quote passages from the Quran out of context or try to distort their meaning. The verses about obeying Noah (alaihi salam) is in the context of the Qawmu Noohin (the people of Noah), not the People of Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa salam).


Abrogation claims of Muslim Scholars



(The biggest lie against the Quran)


.


The fabricated concept of Quranic abrogation is probably the biggest single lie against the Quran. This fabrication was originally invented during the fourth century A.H. (late 10th century A.D.) by some Muslim scholars notably Ahmed Bin Ishaq Al-Dinary (died 318 A.H.), Mohamad Bin Bahr Al-Asbahany (died 322 A.H.), Hebat Allah Bin Salamah (died 410 A.H.) and Mohamad Bin Mousa Al-Hazmy (died 548 A.H.), whose book about Al-Nasekh and Al-Mansoukh is regarded as one of the leading references in the subject.



According to this concept, it is claimed that numerous verses in the Quran have actually been abrogated and invalidated by other verses!



The verse that is the abrogator they call (Al-Nasekh) while the abrogated verse they call (Al-Mansoukh).



These scholars have come up with hundreds of cases of abrogated verses to the extent that they have formulated a whole science of the subject filling lengthy books and references.



Although the concept was originally invented by Muslim scholars as a result of their poor understanding of the Quran, yet it has been widely exploited by non-Muslim writers to tarnish the perfection and divinity of the book. The claim is based on the misinterpretation of the following verse:



"When we abrogate any ayat, or cause it to be forgotten, we produce a better one, or an equal one. Do you not recognize the fact that God is Omnipotent?" 2:106



The claim of abrogation is in complete contempt of God's words in the Quran:



"The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. NOTHING SHALL ABROGATE HIS WORDS." 6:115



"A.L.R. This is a book whose AYATS HAVE BEEN PERFECTED" 11:1
"……the words of God are UNCHANGEABLE"10:64



As is plainly clear from the above Quranic words, God asserts that the words of the Quran are perfect, harbour no contradictions and cannot be abrogated. Yet sadly these scholars have invented the greatest lie against the Quran, claiming that there are verses in the Quran that abrogate and invalidate other verses.


They base their claim on a corrupted interpretation of two verses:


FIRST VERSE 2:106



"Whichever Ayah We relinquish or cause to be forgotten We replace it with its equal or with that which is greater, did you not know that God is capable of all things?" 2:106



What the interpreters claim is that this verse confirms that some Quranic verses are invalidated by others. They interpret ‘Ayah’ in this verse to mean a verse in the Quran.



However the word Ayah, as used in the Quran, can have one of four different meanings:



a- It could mean a miracle from God as in:



"And We supported Moses with nine profound Ayah's (miracles)." 17:101



b- It could also mean an example for people to take heed from as in:



"And the folk of Noah, when they disbelieved the messengers, We have drowned them and set an Ayah (example) of them for all people." 25:37



c- The word ‘Ayah’ can also mean a sign as in:



"He said, ‘My Lord, give me an ‘Ayah’ (sign).’ He said, ‘Your Ayah is that you will not speak to people for three consecutive nights." 19:10



d- It could mean a verse in the Quran, as in:



"This is a book that We have sent down to you that is sacred, perhaps they will reflect on its ‘Ayat’ (verses)." 38:29



Now if we consider verse 106 of Sura 2, we can easily spot that the word ‘Ayah’ in this particular verse could not mean a verse in the Quran. It can mean any of the other meanings (miracle, example or sign) but not a verse in the Quran. This is because of the following reasons:



1- The words "cause to be forgotten" could not be applicable if the word ‘Ayah’in this verse meant a verse in the Quran. How can a verse in the Quran become forgotten? For even if the verse was invalidated by another (as the interpreters falsely claim) it will still be part of the Quran and thus could never be forgotten.



2- The words "We replace it with its equal" would be meaningless if the word ‘Ayah’ in this verse meant a Quranic verse, simply because it would make no sense for God to invalidate one verse then replace it with one that is identical to it!



3- If the word ‘Ayah’ in verse 106 meant a miracle an example or a sign, then all the words of the verse would make perfect sense. The words "cause to be forgotten" can apply to all three meanings and that is what actually happens with the passing of time. The miracles of Moses and Jesus have long been forgotten. We only believe in them because they are mentioned in the Quran.



Similarly the words "We replace with its equal or with that which is greater" is in line with the miracles of God. God indeed replaces one miracle with its equal or with one that is greater than it. Consider the following verse :



"And We have sent Moses with Our Ayah’s (miracles or signs) to Pharaoh and his elders proclaiming : ‘I am a messenger from the Lord of the universe’. When he brought them our Ayah's they laughed at him. Every Ayah We showed them was greater than the one that preceded it." 43:46-48



SECOND VERSE 16:101



"When We substitute one Ayat (revelation) in place of another, and God is fully aware of what He reveals, they say, 'You made this up'. Indeed most of them do not know"



The substitution spoken of here is concerned with one of two things:



a- The substitution of one Scripture in place of another.



b- The substitution of one verse or law within a Scripture with another in a subsequent Scripture



a- The first meaning is given evidence to in the following verse:



"Then we revealed to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures, and superseding them." 5:48



Here, the words "superseding them." confirm that the previous scripture were substituted with the Quran.



b- The second meaning is also given evidence to in the Quran where various issues that were prohibited to the previous people of the book were made lawful in the Quran.



As an example, we are told in 2:187 that sexual intercourse between married couples during the nights of the fasting month was made lawful, while it was prohibited previously.



We are also told in 6:146 that God prohibited for the Jews all animals with undivided hoofs; and of the cattle and sheep the fat was prohibited. These were made lawful in the Quran.



This verse 16:101 does not speak about the substitution of one verse in the Quran with another.



The evidence to that is given within the same verse (16:101):
The key to the meaning of the verse lies in the words:



"........they say, 'You made this up"



Here we must stop and ask, who is likely to tell the messenger "You made this up"? And why? For sure it cannot be his followers, his followers are not likely to tell him:



"You have made it up"................it has to be those who do not believe in him, which focuses on the followers of previous scripture who feared that their scripture was in danger of being "substituted" with the Quran............



What more evidence to that more than the fact that till this day, the Jews and Christians accuse Muhammad that he fabricated the Quran himself! If this accusation is from the Jews and Christians we must then ask, are they accusing Muhammad of substituting one verse in the Quran with another? The Jews and Christians do not care if one verse in the Quran is substituted for another, after all they do not believe in the whole book............. they will not complain that one verse in the Quran is being substituted with another! However, and if their Scripture is being substituted by the Quran, they will immediately accuse the messenger that the Scripture he brings (Quran) is not from God but that he "made it up" himself.



These glorious words "You have made it up" indeed stand as true indicator from God Almighty that the substitution spoken of in this verse is not related to one within the Quran, but indeed a substitution between two scripture.



As mentioned before, the substitution of the previous scripture with the Quran is confirmed in 5:48



As a result of the corruption of the meaning of 2:106 and 16:101, and the claim that some Quranic verses invalidate other verses, the interpreters have demonstrated their failure to uphold two main characteristics of the Quran, those being that the Quran is perfect and harbours no contradictions (11:1) and also that the words of God are unchangeable (10:64).



It is well worth inquiring here into the motive behind the interpreters corruption of the meaning of 2:106 and 16:101.



Perhaps the major reason is not connected to the Quran at all but to the ‘hadith’. It is well accepted among the hadith scholars that the concept of abrogation applies to the hadith since it is found that many ‘hadith’ contradict one another. The examples of these are too numerous. The following are only some examples:



P.S. (the first number is the number of the book (chapter), and second number is the number of hadith. For example Muslim 18/58 means the 58th hadith in the 18th book of Muslim. In other quotations the name of the chapter is given instead of its number.



1- "I am the most honourable messenger" (Bukhary 97/36).
This hadith contradicts the following hadith:
"Do not make any distinction among the messengers; I am not even better than Jonah" (Bukhary 65/4,5; Hanbel 1/205,242,440).



2- "The Prophet never urinated in standing position" (Hanbel 6/136,192,213). This contradicts:
"The prophet urinated in standing position" (Bukhary 4/60,62).



3- "The prophet said, ‘The sun was eclipsed the day Ibrahim (the prophet’s son) died’… (Bukhary 7/page 118)
This contradicts:
"The prophet said, ‘the sun and moon are signs from God, they are not eclipsed for the death or life of any one" (Bukhari 2/page 24)



4- "If two Muslims fight each other with their swords, the killer and the killed will go to hell" (Bukhari 1/page 13, Muslim 18/page 10).
This hadith contradicts the hadith of the ten who were foretold that they will go to heaven by the prophet (Ahmad 1/page 187-188, also narrated by Abu Dawood and Al-Tarmazy). That is because among those ten were those who fought and killed one another in battle, specifically Ali, Talha and Al-Zobair. According to the first hadith they will go to hell but accoding to the second hadith they are foretold paradise!



5- In various hadith, specifically in the chapters of the ‘Hereafter’ in the books of Bukhary and Muslim we read numerous predictions by the prophet detailing what will take place there. This contradicts the hadith by Aesha, the prophet’s wife where she says "Anybody who says that Muhammad knows the future is a liar" (Bukhary 8/ page 166, Muslim 3/ page 9-10)



6- "The prophet said, ‘Take your religion from the words of Aesha (the prophet’s wife)"
This contradicts: "The prophet said, ‘Aesha is immature in mind and faith." (Bukhari and others)



The heart of the matter is directly connected to the following verse:



"Why do they not study the Quran carefully? If it were from a source other than God, they would have detected within it numerous contradictions." 4:82



This verse confirms that anything that contains contradictions cannot be from God, and since the hadith contains numerous contradictions, as shown, it cannot be from God. But the hadith advocates claim that the hadith was inspired by God and that the hadith Al-Qudsy is God’s own words spoken to Muhammad! If that is so, how could they explain the contradictions in hadith? How could it be from God when it is full of contradictions? According to 4:82 nothing that contains contradictions can be from God.



To wiggle out of this tricky situation, the hadith advocates devised the concept of the abrogation of Quranic verses.



The plan was as such: If the Quran can be shown to contain contradictory verses, yet no one will dispute that it is from God, then the hadith with its contradictions can also be described to be inspired by God !!!



Quite a sly plot except for one minor detail:



.THE QURAN CONTAINS NO CONTRADICTIONS!



http://www.quran-islam.org/160.html

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 10: Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:31 am
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Ilias Ahmad wrote:
You are a very stupid person.

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