People argue both ways for this movie. The religious right can see it as a positive tool to bring moderates to becoming "real" Christians. Atheists such as myself can find it somewhere between humorous and tragic. I can't help but laugh at certain points but I feel so bad for those kids throughout most of the movie.
So the questions to everyone out there are:
Does Jesus Camp show evangelical and charismatic Christianity in a positive light?
Does this documentary show phsychological abuse against children?
Jesus Camp Documentary
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- Lionspoint
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Re: Mindless indoctrination
Post #11Flail wrote:Any mindless indoctrination with spiritual dogma of children is child abuse.
Can you please cite your resources for this claim? Credible ones preferably. And please, define what "mindless indoctrination" actually encompasses.
What we do for ourselves dies with us,
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.
-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.
-Harvey Fierstein
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.
-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.
-Harvey Fierstein
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- Sage
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Re: Mindless indoctrination
Post #12Doesn't the inherent subjectivity of that statement make that pointless? It is clearly a representation of his viewpoint, and, as such, does not require someone else agreeing with him to be valid.Confused wrote:Flail wrote:Any mindless indoctrination with spiritual dogma of children is child abuse.
Can you please cite your resources for this claim?
Re: Mindless indoctrination
Post #13If this was in the discussion forum, then opinions are fine. It, however, is in the debate forum. Therefore declarations of what constitutes child abuse should have some validity to it and should by rights, be verifiable as fact or as close to fact as reasoning and evidence would allow us to reach.Homicidal_Cherry53 wrote:Doesn't the inherent subjectivity of that statement make that pointless? It is clearly a representation of his viewpoint, and, as such, does not require someone else agreeing with him to be valid.Confused wrote:Flail wrote:Any mindless indoctrination with spiritual dogma of children is child abuse.
Can you please cite your resources for this claim?
What we do for ourselves dies with us,
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.
-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.
-Harvey Fierstein
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.
-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.
-Harvey Fierstein
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- Sage
- Posts: 519
- Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:38 am
- Location: America
Re: Mindless indoctrination
Post #14True, but why must he cite some outside resource? Justification can, and probably should be asked for given that this is a debate forum, but it seems to me that the justification could come simply from whatever thought process lead him to this conclusion.Confused wrote:If this was in the discussion forum, then opinions are fine. It, however, is in the debate forum. Therefore declarations of what constitutes child abuse should have some validity to it and should by rights, be verifiable as fact or as close to fact as reasoning and evidence would allow us to reach.Homicidal_Cherry53 wrote:Doesn't the inherent subjectivity of that statement make that pointless? It is clearly a representation of his viewpoint, and, as such, does not require someone else agreeing with him to be valid.Confused wrote:Flail wrote:Any mindless indoctrination with spiritual dogma of children is child abuse.
Can you please cite your resources for this claim?
Anyways, I feel I'm on the verge of hijacking this topic, so I'll try to limit my responses on the topic, or save them for a more appropriate time and place.
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Re: Mindless indoctrination
Post #15Flail wrote:Any mindless indoctrination with spiritual dogma of children is child abuse.
I agree with Flail. "Mindless indoctrination" without actually giving any examples, of children is abuse of their freedom to grow into thinking responsible adults.Confused wrote:Can you please cite your resources for this claim? Credible ones preferably. And please, define what "mindless indoctrination" actually encompasses.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John
- Lionspoint
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Post #16
Daniel Dennett has given the best advice I have heard so far with regards to teaching children about religion. Provide the facts of all the religions, the history, the beliefs and so on without invoking any one of them to being superior, in an unbiased manner and let the children evaluate them and decide for themselves what they think is true. He says that all children should learn this, in public schools, private schools, homeschooling, in primary and high schools.Flail wrote:Any mindless indoctrination with spiritual dogma of children is child abuse.
Telling a child they are going to hell forever if they don't get right with god is psychological abuse to the point of evil lunacy. A credible resource for this claim is that I was taught that and it took me several YEARS to finally get over it. And as a child it was quite terrifying.Confused wrote:Can you please cite your resources for this claim? Credible ones preferably. And please, define what "mindless indoctrination" actually encompasses.
Mindless indoctrination for me would be using faith, something which by definition is belief in, devotion to, or trust in somebody or something, especially without logical proof and using that to bully small children into obedience.
- Cathar1950
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Post #17
I remember when I was 7 or 8 dreaming that I was sent to hell and woke up in a hot sleeping bag.Lionspoint wrote:Daniel Dennett has given the best advice I have heard so far with regards to teaching children about religion. Provide the facts of all the religions, the history, the beliefs and so on without invoking any one of them to being superior, in an unbiased manner and let the children evaluate them and decide for themselves what they think is true. He says that all children should learn this, in public schools, private schools, homeschooling, in primary and high schools.Flail wrote:Any mindless indoctrination with spiritual dogma of children is child abuse.
Telling a child they are going to hell forever if they don't get right with god is psychological abuse to the point of evil lunacy. A credible resource for this claim is that I was taught that and it took me several YEARS to finally get over it. And as a child it was quite terrifying.Confused wrote:Can you please cite your resources for this claim? Credible ones preferably. And please, define what "mindless indoctrination" actually encompasses.
Mindless indoctrination for me would be using faith, something which by definition is belief in, devotion to, or trust in somebody or something, especially without logical proof and using that to bully small children into obedience.
I don't recall ever using threats of Hell on my children.
Many believers fell doubt is enough to send them to hell where God has prepared a place for those that question the unbelievable.
- Lionspoint
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Post #18
If you ever sent your children to a Christian church, they almost certainly heard of hell.Cathar1950 wrote:I don't recall ever using threats of Hell on my children.
This assumption is the foundation of my total lack of belief in the biblical god. Inifinite punishment for finite crimes is devoid of rational thought, let alone compassion and forgiveness.Cathar1950 wrote:Many believers feel doubt is enough to send them to hell where God has prepared a place for those that question the unbelievable.
Re: Mindless indoctrination
Post #19Great, then can you please describe "mindless indoctrination"? Since you agree with him, I would assume you can tell me what this encompasses so I can understand whether it is a subjective or objective criteria being used to quantify child abuse.McCulloch wrote:Flail wrote:Any mindless indoctrination with spiritual dogma of children is child abuse.I agree with Flail. "Mindless indoctrination" without actually giving any examples, of children is abuse of their freedom to grow into thinking responsible adults.Confused wrote:Can you please cite your resources for this claim? Credible ones preferably. And please, define what "mindless indoctrination" actually encompasses.
What we do for ourselves dies with us,
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.
-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.
-Harvey Fierstein
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.
-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.
-Harvey Fierstein
Post #20
I would agree with you here. But that isn't mindless indoctrination.Lionspoint wrote:Daniel Dennett has given the best advice I have heard so far with regards to teaching children about religion. Provide the facts of all the religions, the history, the beliefs and so on without invoking any one of them to being superior, in an unbiased manner and let the children evaluate them and decide for themselves what they think is true. He says that all children should learn this, in public schools, private schools, homeschooling, in primary and high schools.Flail wrote:Any mindless indoctrination with spiritual dogma of children is child abuse.
This I would agree with and it could very well be seen as negative reinforcement.Lionspoint wrote:Telling a child they are going to hell forever if they don't get right with god is psychological abuse to the point of evil lunacy. A credible resource for this claim is that I was taught that and it took me several YEARS to finally get over it. And as a child it was quite terrifying.Confused wrote:Can you please cite your resources for this claim? Credible ones preferably. And please, define what "mindless indoctrination" actually encompasses.
Ok, I see what you are saying here. Using it as a tool to control someone in a negative way can be a form of abuse, yes.Lionspoint wrote: Mindless indoctrination for me would be using faith, something which by definition is belief in, devotion to, or trust in somebody or something, especially without logical proof and using that to bully small children into obedience.
What we do for ourselves dies with us,
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.
-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.
-Harvey Fierstein
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.
-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.
-Harvey Fierstein