The Shroud of T

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Nyril
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The Shroud of T

Post #1

Post by Nyril »

According to this website someone took up a project to see if they could duplicate the shroud using materials available in the 1600's.

From the page I linked:
The Shroud of Turin has long confused, amazed, and befuddled both its critics and proponents. There are many issues surrounding the Shroud and the debate over its authenticity. This site will avoid most of those issues. This site contains the results of a crude experiment that could potentially explain how the Shroud was produced. For centuries no one has been able to explain how a photonegative image of a man could be three-dimensionally encrypted onto linen by medieval forgers unable even to appreciate the completeness of their own art. The Shadow Theory postulates that such an image could be created using only painted glass and sunlight.
In the interest of saving bandwidth I'll let you look at the pictures of your own free will (they came out pretty good).

For people that believe in the shroud:

Is it a problem that shroud like replicas can be made with glass, paint, and linen?

Before this comes under a assault on the grounds that this is a heathen trick, the people that did this were believers doing what they thought was right:
Why would a Christian want to do this? Doesn’t attacking the Shroud hurt the Church?
Wilson’s answer:
This is not only a permissible thing for a Christian to do, it is something that, in principle, every Christian should want to do. Christians should hate lies, but above all else, lies told within the Church at large. Religious fraud isn’t only a lie about a thing (a miraculous healing, contact with angels, a relic, etc.). Religious fraud is a lie about the Church and Christ Himself. It is just another way of taking the Lord’s name in vain. We should want to debunk religious hypocrisy far more than we want to debunk secular hypocrisy.
"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air...we need believing people."
[Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933]

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Corvus
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Post #21

Post by Corvus »

otseng wrote:
Corvus wrote: I don't see how it is consistent. Why, for example, is the brow far less prominent than the eyebrows or, more curiously, with the moustache, which is in the valley made by being situated between nose and lip?
I do not quite understand the examples that you have brought up.
I was actually referring to the forehead, not the brow, but notice how much more prominent the brow is in the picture compared to the forehead? Why is the upper lip one of the most prominent features on Jesus' face? Situated where it is, the hairy upper lip should be amongst the least prominent feature displayed on the cloth, yet this isn't so.

And even if a forger did happen to use a faux negative producing technique. He (or perhaps she) would have been the first person to use such a technique. And I don't believe any other artist in history have used a similar technique since.
Not at all. Divorced from its context as a method for burning images onto paper and thus reproducing particular scenes, the method used is in no way significant. You could achieve similar results by putting your hand in a bucket of paint and pressing it forcefully against a piece of paper or making a rubbing of a coin.
Again, it would appear that the forger would be the only person in history to create such an image with his technique. That in itself would be strange. We can speculate how he did it, but the fact remains that his work (if it indeed is a forgery) remains unreproduced. Furthermore, it is not possible to achieve similar results through paint of any kind since the image is only on the surface of the cloth.
Knowing nothing about how paints should react with cloth, I can't really write about what is or is not possible.
That's a clever deduction, though I don't remain convinced that the reach of the arm wold be so lengthened that Jesus' relaxed posture, where his elbows appear to be on the ground and he is still capable of reaching his groin, would be at all possible.
As well, I don't remain convinced that it would not be. ;)
But there are many other issues. I have mentioned some, like the way the blood and hair flows, but now I am wondering, would there have been blood at all? The crucifixion was a prolonged affair, lasting in excess of 3 hours. Should not the blood around the crown have dried by the time he was removed and/or transported to the sepulchre in which he was interred? Could the blood from his other wounds still be fresh? Why did Joseph of Arimathea not wash Jesus' body, especially since he used what Matthew calls "clean linen and cloth" and what Mark calls "fine linen"? Joseph certainly would have known blood would attract flies, and surely would not have treated Jesus' corpse with such irreverence. And how did he manage to wrap the body without disturbing the rivulets of blood?
<i>'Beauty is truth, truth beauty,—that is all
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.'</i>
-John Keats, Ode on a Grecian Urn.

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Dilettante
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Post #22

Post by Dilettante »

I'm very skeptical about the Turin Shroud for many reasons. First, as Corvus has mentioned, the arms are grotesquely elongated. A product of the crucifixion? Seems unlikely. How many hours would it take for a crucified man's arms to stretch like that and how many hours was Jesus on the cross according to most expert guesses? Besides, a Roman cross, apart from the "simplex" (the vertical beam) and the "patibulum" (the horizontal beam which the convicts had to carry themselves) frequently had a "sedecula" (a much smaller piece of wood designed to provide some support for the buttocks, and probably to prolong the agony). Of course we don't know if Jesus' cross had a sedecula or not, but if it had one, the arms would not have to support as much weight. Another thing is how much the face on the Shroud resembles the "Christ Pantocrator" images of traditional religious art. Check for yourself here:

http://thesilvericon.com/SilverIconCatPantocrator.sht

Yet another suspicious feature is the way the image is supposed to have been formed. If, as otseng wrote, Jesus emanated some kind of energy which burned the cloth, the image should look very different, especially the face. What we should see is a flattened face with the ears on a parallel plane with the face, sort of like the Death Mask of Agamemnon here: http://www.sikyon.com/Mykinai/Art/art_eg01.html

That the paint did not penetrate the cloth very deep is only an indication that it was applied dry. If you apply paint that is thinly diluted in abundant medium, it will penetrate very well and sometimes show on the other side. However, if the paint is dry, it will stay on the surface. At least that's my experience as a college graduate in Fine Arts.

The most common bits of evidence against the authenticity of the Shroud are:

1. That that particular weave of cloth was not made in Palestine back then.
2. That the way the body is wrapped does not coincide with Jewish custom at the time or with the Gospel description (which mentions two separate cloths, one for the head and one for the body).
3. Carbon dating by three independent labs indicate the cloth was woven abround 1350 (it first surfaced in 1355).
4. The alleged blood stains are too red for such an old cloth, and were shown by Walter McCrane's lab to be pigment of the kind used by artists at the time.
5.The Bishop of Troyes knew who the artist was that painted the cloth and wrote a letter to Pope Clement VII denouncing the artifact as a money-making scheme.

It is certainly suspicious that the cloth was discovered precisely at the height of relic worship in the Middle Ages.
Of course the fact that replicas can be made using technology known at the time is not, by itself, enough to disprove the Shroud, but should make us a bit skeptical at least.
BTW, a lifesized replica made in 2000 is being shown at a church not far from my home, so I'll try and see if I can get the time to travel there and have a look.
The face cloth traditionally supposed to have covered Jesus' head is kept in the cathedral of Oviedo (Spain)--my old hometown! Last Friday (a week ago) the Archbishop held it up for everyone to see during the benediction at Mass. Unfortunately I wasn't there (it's one of the few occasions when it is shown to the general public) but even if I had, you have to be very close to see anything, and there is no image on the "sudarium" anyway, just some blood stains. Still, "sindonologists" claim that the blood stains on the Oviedo cloth coincide with those on the Turin cloth. So if both cloths covered the same face, why isn't there an image in the Oviedo cloth? There's a picture of the cloth in this webpage:
http://www.shroud.com/guscin.htm

To sum up, I think the evidence tips the scales in favor of the theory that the Shroud is a forgery and not a PPO (permanent paranormal object).

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ST88
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Post #23

Post by ST88 »

Corvus wrote:
otseng wrote:
Corvus wrote: I don't see how it is consistent. Why, for example, is the brow far less prominent than the eyebrows or, more curiously, with the moustache, which is in the valley made by being situated between nose and lip?
I do not quite understand the examples that you have brought up.
I was actually referring to the forehead, not the brow, but notice how much more prominent the brow is in the picture compared to the forehead? Why is the upper lip one of the most prominent features on Jesus' face? Situated where it is, the hairy upper lip should be amongst the least prominent feature displayed on the cloth, yet this isn't so.
There are some other strange, anomalous sources of mystical energy.

1) Why, for example, is there a hairspray-helmet of hair around the face? If the figure was lying down, the hair should have been splayed out almost level to the ground, certainly not the topographic representation of being close to the cloth.
2) Why aren't the knees a top-most layer of mystical energy? In the figure, the lower halves of the thighs are higher than the knees.
3) There are what appear to be folded cloths around the hips of the figure. How could clothing that Jesus might have been wearing have radiated the same mystical energy that was created by the resurrection?
4) Why is the neck so prominent?

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