Paranormal Research

[aprilannies]

I had a friend call my attention to this link:

http://www.rednova.com/news/display/?id=126649#

about paranormal research that is going on at Princeton. These scientists have some interesting studies on time travel, psychic phenomenon, and global consciousness. What could religious implications be if these studies continue to gain credibility?

Please move if needed, I didn't really know where to put this.

[Dilettante]

I agree with ST88. I don't know of a single thing a psychic has achieved by allegedly supernatural means which could not equally have been achieved via natural means. Parsimony (Occam's razor) dictates that there is no need to posit supernatural causes when natural ones will do.

[eveil42]

i fully understand all of the points being made, but i belive that the word (psychic) itself is truly being misunderstood here. i received st88 reply and in response to this individual i have to state- just because it is not proven does not mean that it does not exist. furthermore, mentally ill people suffer from a screw lose, a wire in their minds that cannot find its way to the central or main cortex of thir own mainframe. the psychotic-is not the subject of discussion here. what my point is -is that you cannot disprove that there are many individuals that may experience a moment of syncrhonicity together. this being the case. one can often find themselves thinking (the same thing at the same time)that someone else is thinking- does this mean that both people are aware of their own thoughts at the same time? who knows. but unless there is some proof of people not having psychic ability-it cannot be limited to just not existing. so it is possible to have a connection and i am not personally saying that this connection is purely limited to just a coincidental thought that is an upsurge from one individual to another. my point really is can we disprove it.
eveil42

[Dilettante]

We don't need to wait until every individual on earth who claims to be a psychic is proven to be either a fake or a fluke to be skeptical of psychics.
I could give you a long list of well-known psychics, from Mrs Piper to Mr Geller, who have been exposed as frauds, but that's not the point. The point is that belief in the supernatural doesn't have to be our default setting until conclusively proved wrong.
Of course, there's always the possibility, however infinitesimal, that someone somewhere at some time in the distant future actually will develop psychic powers. I would then ask the experts to test him or her properly. But since all known cases to date have been either mere coincidence or deceit, the wisest thing is to disbelieve such claims, at least as a working hypothesis.
Sometimes my wife and me have had a similar thought at the same time. Should I put that down to an obscure and confusing phenomenon such as synchronicity or to the fact that we have known each other for a long time, are sensitive to each other, and have become of like mind?
I prefer the second option.

[ST88]

i fully understand all of the points being made, but i belive that the word (psychic) itself is truly being misunderstood here. i received st88 reply and in response to this individual i have to state- just because it is not proven does not mean that it does not exist. furthermore, mentally ill people suffer from a screw lose, a wire in their minds that cannot find its way to the central or main cortex of thir own mainframe. the psychotic-is not the subject of discussion here. what my point is -is that you cannot disprove that there are many individuals that may experience a moment of syncrhonicity together.

You're right in some sense that just because something is not proven, that doesn't mean it isn't true. But is that really how we should operate? Like Dilettante says, our default setting shouldn't be to accept the paranormal as true, since in no other area do we accept this as a valid reason/excuse. There are many things that can't be disproven, but the point is that an assertion like that needs more than just speculation to back it up. Many things are possible -- but we must to be able to study and support those things which at first do not appear likely.

[Cassander]

I think it would greatly impact the world if anything paranormal was actually proven to be "fact" beyond a doubt.

As for myself, I've experienced weird stuff more then once, and I know there is something else out there.

It's truly freaky when you go to bed and have invisible beings walking around your bed room/house before you go to sleep. Obviously I can't prove that has happened and you may find that laughable. But what can I say, I experienced it, I know it's real. And no, it's not a dream, and I'm not losing my mind. I'm not the only one in my house that has gone through it either. heh

So, I don't think that all "paranormal" occurances are fake. There are a ton of frauds out there though and I wouldn't trust any of them.

[Dilettante]

Cassander wrote:

I think it would greatly impact the world if anything paranormal was actually proven to be "fact" beyond a doubt.

You're probably right.

As for myself, I've experienced weird stuff more then once, and I know there is something else out there.

What is it that convinced you? Knowledge is defined as rationally justified true belief, so I'm curious to know how you know this.

It's truly freaky when you go to bed and have invisible beings walking around your bed room/house before you go to sleep.

How did you felt their presence if you can't see them? Can you hear or touch them?

Obviously I can't prove that has happened and you may find that laughable.

I won't laugh at you. I've known someone who had had similar experiences and they didn't want to even talk about it. I know it can be very scary, it's no laughing matter. But I need a special kind of evidence to believe that it isn't a sensorial illusion.

But what can I say, I experienced it, I know it's real. And no, it's not a dream, and I'm not losing my mind. I'm not the only one in my house that has gone through it either. heh

Sometimes more than one person experiences what seems like a paranormal phenomenon. That wouldn't be so unusual.

So, I don't think that all "paranormal" occurances are fake.

I believe you are sincere. But I would try to rule out simpler explanations first, like the possibility of sensorial illusion (even of the collective type) or the possibility that someone is trying to scare you. As you said, hoaxes happen all the time.

[Cassander]

I "know" there is something else out there, because of what I, and other people in my home have gone through. If I don't "know" this happened, then I really don't know if anything in my life has happened. It's just as real as anything else. I don't know how else to explain it. Obviously I may be wrong in believing it to be of a unexplainable orgin. Anyway I'll just write out what happened and you can decide for yourself.

I know this sounds simplistic, but both me and my sister for instance have heard things walking around up and down the hall. Our parents door (which is very loud) to their bedroom never opened or closed. The footsteps never really went anywhere with any apparent object in mind. They just seemed to wonder aimlessly around the house. Eventually they would just stop and you wouldn't hear them anymore. If it was our parents (which they swear it wasn't) then why do the footsteps just stop? Why don't the footsteps go to our parents room? Why doesn't their door ever open? Would our parents walk around for no reason in the middle of the night and then lie about it the next morning?
We live in a house built in 1925. It's pretty big and still has a lot of the original wood floor work etc. It is impossible for anyone to walk around the house without making noise. Anyway the only other people in our house, are our parents. I always asked them the next morning if they were up during the night, but they swear they were not.
The footsteps were heavy. They went back and forth for probably half an hour on several occasions. This is not creaks in the floor. This was distinct footsteps. I was probably 9 at the time. My sister was 11-12. My mom being very religous was concerned and started praying with us at night before we went to bed. Strangely it all stopped. (Note, I'm not a religous person, but my family is)

Nothing happened for probably 2 - 3 years. Then something else happened. My sister and I still slept in the same room at the time. (seperate beds obviously,) Anyway, around 10 minutes after we had gone to bed, something started walking in our room. Notice, it started walking in our room. The footsteps came as if, from nowhere. Anyway, whatever it was, it came and stood directly by the side of her bed as if it was just looking at her. It walked distinctly over the carpet. She turned, thinking that someone must be there but nobody was. It freaked us out, I jumped out of bed and flipped the light on. There was nothing there. No retreating footsteps, no nothing. We were both really shook up and went crying to our parents. I swear to god this was no illusion. I wore earplugs for a year or so, just so I could sleep without hearing this stuff.

I'd be happy not to believe any of this was "paranormal" but whatever it was, it wasn't "normal" and it basically scared the crap out of me.

I believe you are sincere. But I would try to rule out simpler explanations first, like the possibility of sensorial illusion (even of the collective type) or the possibility that someone is trying to scare you. As you said, hoaxes happen all the time.

Sure, I'm with you there. I'd be glad if my senses were just playing tricks on me because honestly, I'd rather believe that. But what are the chances of someones senses playing tricks with them, at the same time as somebody elses and hearing the same thing?

btw, I don't believe in ghosts. I never have. I truly don't know what this was, and I don't make assumptions that it was a demon or a ghost or whatever. All I know, is that it scared me and I haven't been the same since. I never want to have it happen again. So when I say, I don't believe all "paranormal" occurances are fake, I don't mean that I believe in ghosts. I do believe that something else is out there, but I don't give it a name and I don't know what it is.

[harvey1]

btw, I don't believe in ghosts. I never have. I truly don't know what this was, and I don't make assumptions that it was a demon or a ghost or whatever. All I know, is that it scared me and I haven't been the same since. I never want to have it happen again. So when I say, I don't believe all "paranormal" occurances are fake, I don't mean that I believe in ghosts. I do believe that something else is out there, but I don't give it a name and I don't know what it is.

It seems a little hard to believe. I have more to add to my "something ________ happened to you."

[Dilettante]

Cassander,
I need more information before I can suggest a possible natural explanation for the phenomenon you experienced, but it seems to me quite likely that nothing paranormal is involved. Some possibilities which come to mind are:
1) one of your parents was sleepwalking, so they don't remember about it in the morning
2) Some kind of household pest is involved (although it would have to be
a noisy kind of animal)
3) Drafts of air and other natural sources producing sounds which can be
misinterpreted
4) Sensory delusions due to emotional stress, sleep deprivation, etc.
Shared hallucinations are rare, but not undocumented.

Bear in mind that a ghost is supposed to be a disembodied soul, so it couldn't be responsible for the footsteps you heard (no feet, no weight, etc).

Here are some links for your information:

http://torontoghosts.org/science/

http://www.csicop.org/si/2000-01/ghost.html

http://skepdic.com/collective.html

[Cassander]

1) one of your parents was sleepwalking, so they don't remember about it in the morning

This could be an explanation for the first few times, although neither of them have a history of sleepwalking. However on the last one, it doesn't work. Parents don't tend to walk around in your room at night and then dissapear and end up back in bed when you turn on the light. It just doesn't happen.

2) Some kind of household pest is involved (although it would have to be
a noisy kind of animal)

We have no inside pets. And animals don't walk like a person on two legs.

3) Drafts of air and other natural sources producing sounds which can be
misinterpreted

Once again, the wind don't walk around the house.. This was footsteps. I know it sounds stupid, but I swear it was. I respect the fact that you weren't there, and thus didn't hear what I heard. But if you had been there, you would understand what I mean.

4) Sensory delusions due to emotional stress, sleep deprivation, etc.

I can't knock this one out.^ It could be... But of course it's always hard for someone to admit that something very real to them, was simply a "sensory delusion". I have no reason to believe it was, other then that's what I am told.

Bear in mind that a ghost is supposed to be a disembodied soul, so it couldn't be responsible for the footsteps you heard (no feet, no weight, etc).

Yes, I've considered all that. In fact I believe, then when a person dies, he is dead. I don't believe in souls floating around. I don't claim anything other then what I know, and what I know is what I have experienced. I don't claim it was a ghost. All I claim, is that I've heard what I've heard, and I've seen what I've seen. (or lack of seeing anything, in this case) I can't tell you what it was, but I can tell you what it wasn't. It wasn't an animal. It wasn't a human. It wasn't wind currents or creaks in the floor.

Having said that, the only thing left that could be explained by the "natural" crap, would be the idea that I was simply out of my mind, and that my sister was out of hers. It's easier for you to believe that then it is for me obviously. lol

Thanks for the links btw