Unworthiness

[justifyothers]

Christians & Unworthiness -


This topic has bothered me for some time. Much of Christian doctrine is based on the teachings of Paul. We all know this. Nothing new here. He preaches that we are unworthy of God’s love. That we are deviant sinners from the start.

This doctrine is supported by many preachers from the pulpit, on television, on the radio and in private bible studies. Some are more dramatic with the force in which they teach it, while some are more sublime with this message. Either way, it’s out there for all to hear.

Now, another typical Christian doctrine s that of the sacrifice of Jesus. There are basically two schools of thought on this – either he was a son of God or he WAS God in the flesh. In both circumstances, Jesus obviously felt that we were ‘worthy’ enough to give his life for us, and God approved this action.

There is no doubt we are not a perfect race. The idea that we ‘sin’/make mistakes is not the issue here. It is our worthiness/unworthiness I would like to discuss. But whether you believe we simply make mistakes and learn from them and move on – or that we are evil sinners and can do no right……the question remains…….why would God/Jesus deem us worthy enough to die for and forgive these transgressions, yet we cannot get over it and move on? Why can’t we accept the gift of forgiveness, life and love and get on with our lives? Why must this idea of lowliness be drilled into our heads? Jesus is recorded of speaking often on the subject of giving – giving freely, without regret, without keeping tabs, etc. Yet, are we to believe that this is how He/God gives? (I love you – but you don’t deserve it)

Let’s look at this from a practical life stance. If someone feels unworthy of their mother’s love, this person may seek counseling to help with this issue. The therapist wants to lay a new foundation of self-worth. This is because a feeling of insecurity and inferiority is not healthy for us. Why then, do we accept this feeling when it comes to God’s love? If we do not feel worthy of love, how can we possibly give love freely to others?

I’m not saying we are equals to God or great creatures of some sort. I’m suggesting that we are actually worthy of His love. I believe this is why He created us – so that we can humbly & gratefully accept His love and be truly free to love others. This, IMO, is the gift and the glad tidings. Perhaps we should truly accept the act of Jesus – realizing that if we weren’t worthy, he wouldn’t have died for us, and/or God wouldn’t have approved this.

I think if we can continue to make mistakes and learn from them – becoming closer to the nature of God – we are essentially doing God’s will. (IMO – this is to become more loving people) If we continue to wallow in the swamps of inferiority, we are not genuinely accepting the gift of love.

Agree?
Disagree?
[/b]

[JoeyKnothead]

From the OP:

...Why must this idea of lowliness be drilled into our heads?...

A common brainwashing technique. Destroy the target's self esteem and then build them back up with what you're selling. I personally experienced such in my Army Basic Training. Fort Jackson, Tank Hill!!!

I believe this is why He created us – so that we can humbly & gratefully accept His love and be truly free to love others.

I can't love something which is claimed to hate so many of my fellow humans. I can't love something which would condemn folks to hell merely because they didn't believe that something existed.

I can't love something that so insults anyone who disagrees with any of that something's doctrines.

Perhaps we should truly accept the act of Jesus – realizing that if we weren’t worthy, he wouldn’t have died for us, and/or God wouldn’t have approved this.

I see no reason to 'truly accept' biblical tales until they can be shown to rise above the level of myth. That Jesus allegedly died on the cross for my sins is a useless phrase considering I'm still condemned to hell for what sins I commit. Seems Jesus' death was an empty effort.

If we continue to wallow in the swamps of inferiority, we are not genuinely accepting the gift of love.

I much prefer the gift of actually having evidence, reason, or logic to inform my decisions and emotions.

With much respect to Miss justifyothers, this OP seems like preaching more than anything else.

There's little by way of evidence for much of what is implied or claimed herein, and it really just comes down to an interpretation of the motives of a god or person we have scant evidence to base such interpretations on.

[drs]

Christians & Unworthiness -


This topic has bothered me for some time. Much of Christian doctrine is based on the teachings of Paul. We all know this. Nothing new here. He preaches that we are unworthy of God’s love. That we are deviant sinners from the start.

This doctrine is supported by many preachers from the pulpit, on television, on the radio and in private bible studies. Some are more dramatic with the force in which they teach it, while some are more sublime with this message. Either way, it’s out there for all to hear.

Now, another typical Christian doctrine s that of the sacrifice of Jesus. There are basically two schools of thought on this – either he was a son of God or he WAS God in the flesh. In both circumstances, Jesus obviously felt that we were ‘worthy’ enough to give his life for us, and God approved this action.

There is no doubt we are not a perfect race. The idea that we ‘sin’/make mistakes is not the issue here. It is our worthiness/unworthiness I would like to discuss. But whether you believe we simply make mistakes and learn from them and move on – or that we are evil sinners and can do no right……the question remains…….why would God/Jesus deem us worthy enough to die for and forgive these transgressions, yet we cannot get over it and move on? Why can’t we accept the gift of forgiveness, life and love and get on with our lives? Why must this idea of lowliness be drilled into our heads? Jesus is recorded of speaking often on the subject of giving – giving freely, without regret, without keeping tabs, etc. Yet, are we to believe that this is how He/God gives? (I love you – but you don’t deserve it)

Let’s look at this from a practical life stance. If someone feels unworthy of their mother’s love, this person may seek counseling to help with this issue. The therapist wants to lay a new foundation of self-worth. This is because a feeling of insecurity and inferiority is not healthy for us. Why then, do we accept this feeling when it comes to God’s love? If we do not feel worthy of love, how can we possibly give love freely to others?

I’m not saying we are equals to God or great creatures of some sort. I’m suggesting that we are actually worthy of His love. I believe this is why He created us – so that we can humbly & gratefully accept His love and be truly free to love others. This, IMO, is the gift and the glad tidings. Perhaps we should truly accept the act of Jesus – realizing that if we weren’t worthy, he wouldn’t have died for us, and/or God wouldn’t have approved this.

I think if we can continue to make mistakes and learn from them – becoming closer to the nature of God – we are essentially doing God’s will. (IMO – this is to become more loving people) If we continue to wallow in the swamps of inferiority, we are not genuinely accepting the gift of love.

Agree?
Disagree?
[/b]

I supose if I was truly worthy I could save myself but since CHRIST had to come and do it for me, what does that make it.

100% love, mercy and grace on the part of GOD, I did not contribute anything, so what would make me worthy? nothing.

[justifyothers]

From the OP:

...Why must this idea of lowliness be drilled into our heads?...

A common brainwashing technique. Destroy the target's self esteem and then build them back up with what you're selling. I personally experienced such in my Army Basic Training. Fort Jackson, Tank Hill!!!

Ha! Agree & accept ! SIR!!!

I believe this is why He created us – so that we can humbly & gratefully accept His love and be truly free to love others.

I can't love something which is claimed to hate so many of my fellow humans. I can't love something which would condemn folks to hell merely because they didn't believe that something existed.

I can't love something that so insults anyone who disagrees with any of that something's doctrines.

Agreed & I feel the same way. What if all the claims aren't true? What if God is really good - and what we read in the bible are just mens' perceptions of Him?

Perhaps we should truly accept the act of Jesus – realizing that if we weren’t worthy, he wouldn’t have died for us, and/or God wouldn’t have approved this.

I see no reason to 'truly accept' biblical tales until they can be shown to rise above the level of myth. That Jesus allegedly died on the cross for my sins is a useless phrase considering I'm still condemned to hell for what sins I commit. Seems Jesus' death was an empty effort.

You use the bible here as a tool to perpetuate your myth theory, then turn around and use it in your favor concerning 'hell' - interesting.

If we continue to wallow in the swamps of inferiority, we are not genuinely accepting the gift of love.

I much prefer the gift of actually having evidence, reason, or logic to inform my decisions and emotions.

I know - but remember, I am basing most of my ideas on personal experience. That which we know cannot be proven/disproven. Hence, is a valid, until proven otherwise, form of argument. Now, if you had proof that I am a tool short, I'd say "go ahead" with your rebuke of these ideas. Until then, perhaps they could be considered, with your kind recognition

With much respect to Miss justifyothers, this OP seems like preaching more than anything else.

Sorry it came across that way - this may have been directed more at believers and I'm sorry if I put it in the wrong place. As always, a pleasure to hear fom you.

There's little by way of evidence for much of what is implied or claimed herein, and it really just comes down to an interpretation of the motives of a god or person we have scant evidence to base such interpretations on.

I know, but don't you think it could be an interesting discussion? Do you see anything worthwhile in what I said? For Christians and non?

[justifyothers]

Christians & Unworthiness -


This topic has bothered me for some time. Much of Christian doctrine is based on the teachings of Paul. We all know this. Nothing new here. He preaches that we are unworthy of God’s love. That we are deviant sinners from the start.

This doctrine is supported by many preachers from the pulpit, on television, on the radio and in private bible studies. Some are more dramatic with the force in which they teach it, while some are more sublime with this message. Either way, it’s out there for all to hear.

Now, another typical Christian doctrine s that of the sacrifice of Jesus. There are basically two schools of thought on this – either he was a son of God or he WAS God in the flesh. In both circumstances, Jesus obviously felt that we were ‘worthy’ enough to give his life for us, and God approved this action.

There is no doubt we are not a perfect race. The idea that we ‘sin’/make mistakes is not the issue here. It is our worthiness/unworthiness I would like to discuss. But whether you believe we simply make mistakes and learn from them and move on – or that we are evil sinners and can do no right……the question remains…….why would God/Jesus deem us worthy enough to die for and forgive these transgressions, yet we cannot get over it and move on? Why can’t we accept the gift of forgiveness, life and love and get on with our lives? Why must this idea of lowliness be drilled into our heads? Jesus is recorded of speaking often on the subject of giving – giving freely, without regret, without keeping tabs, etc. Yet, are we to believe that this is how He/God gives? (I love you – but you don’t deserve it)

Let’s look at this from a practical life stance. If someone feels unworthy of their mother’s love, this person may seek counseling to help with this issue. The therapist wants to lay a new foundation of self-worth. This is because a feeling of insecurity and inferiority is not healthy for us. Why then, do we accept this feeling when it comes to God’s love? If we do not feel worthy of love, how can we possibly give love freely to others?

I’m not saying we are equals to God or great creatures of some sort. I’m suggesting that we are actually worthy of His love. I believe this is why He created us – so that we can humbly & gratefully accept His love and be truly free to love others. This, IMO, is the gift and the glad tidings. Perhaps we should truly accept the act of Jesus – realizing that if we weren’t worthy, he wouldn’t have died for us, and/or God wouldn’t have approved this.

I think if we can continue to make mistakes and learn from them – becoming closer to the nature of God – we are essentially doing God’s will. (IMO – this is to become more loving people) If we continue to wallow in the swamps of inferiority, we are not genuinely accepting the gift of love.

Agree?
Disagree?
[/b]

I supose if I was truly worthy I could save myself but since CHRIST had to come and do it for me, what does that make it.

100% love, mercy and grace on the part of GOD, I did not contribute anything, so what would make me worthy? nothing.

Nope - it's not about 'saving' yourself. It IS about Jesus/God feeling that you are worthy to be saved, thus, worthy of His love.

Are you contributing anything now? If you are a christian, you should have a 'relationship' with God. A relationship involves two. Are you saying that you allow God to do all the work, while you sit back & reap the benefits of feeling unworthy?

[drs]

Christians & Unworthiness -


This topic has bothered me for some time. Much of Christian doctrine is based on the teachings of Paul. We all know this. Nothing new here. He preaches that we are unworthy of God’s love. That we are deviant sinners from the start.

This doctrine is supported by many preachers from the pulpit, on television, on the radio and in private bible studies. Some are more dramatic with the force in which they teach it, while some are more sublime with this message. Either way, it’s out there for all to hear.

Now, another typical Christian doctrine s that of the sacrifice of Jesus. There are basically two schools of thought on this – either he was a son of God or he WAS God in the flesh. In both circumstances, Jesus obviously felt that we were ‘worthy’ enough to give his life for us, and God approved this action.

There is no doubt we are not a perfect race. The idea that we ‘sin’/make mistakes is not the issue here. It is our worthiness/unworthiness I would like to discuss. But whether you believe we simply make mistakes and learn from them and move on – or that we are evil sinners and can do no right……the question remains…….why would God/Jesus deem us worthy enough to die for and forgive these transgressions, yet we cannot get over it and move on? Why can’t we accept the gift of forgiveness, life and love and get on with our lives? Why must this idea of lowliness be drilled into our heads? Jesus is recorded of speaking often on the subject of giving – giving freely, without regret, without keeping tabs, etc. Yet, are we to believe that this is how He/God gives? (I love you – but you don’t deserve it)

Let’s look at this from a practical life stance. If someone feels unworthy of their mother’s love, this person may seek counseling to help with this issue. The therapist wants to lay a new foundation of self-worth. This is because a feeling of insecurity and inferiority is not healthy for us. Why then, do we accept this feeling when it comes to God’s love? If we do not feel worthy of love, how can we possibly give love freely to others?

I’m not saying we are equals to God or great creatures of some sort. I’m suggesting that we are actually worthy of His love. I believe this is why He created us – so that we can humbly & gratefully accept His love and be truly free to love others. This, IMO, is the gift and the glad tidings. Perhaps we should truly accept the act of Jesus – realizing that if we weren’t worthy, he wouldn’t have died for us, and/or God wouldn’t have approved this.

I think if we can continue to make mistakes and learn from them – becoming closer to the nature of God – we are essentially doing God’s will. (IMO – this is to become more loving people) If we continue to wallow in the swamps of inferiority, we are not genuinely accepting the gift of love.

Agree?
Disagree?
[/b]

I supose if I was truly worthy I could save myself but since CHRIST had to come and do it for me, what does that make it.

100% love, mercy and grace on the part of GOD, I did not contribute anything, so what would make me worthy? nothing.

Nope - it's not about 'saving' yourself. It IS about Jesus/God feeling that you are worthy to be saved, thus, worthy of His love.

That just it, no one can save themself, no one can even know GOD untill He reveals Himself to them.

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=10805

post #5

Are you contributing anything now? If you are a christian, you should have a 'relationship' with God. A relationship involves two. Are you saying that you allow God to do all the work, while you sit back & reap the benefits of feeling unworthy?

Now I work for GOD, His SPIRIT empowers me so I may serve Him.

Do you think CHRIST was joking here?

Without Me you can do nothing.


John 15
The True Vine
1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;[a] and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

[Zzyzx]

.
Thank you for raising an interesting topic. I am in general agreement with your position, but without involving "god".

This topic has bothered me for some time. Much of Christian doctrine is based on the teachings of Paul. We all know this. Nothing new here. He preaches that we are unworthy of God’s love. That we are deviant sinners from the start.

This doctrine is supported by many preachers from the pulpit, on television, on the radio and in private bible studies. Some are more dramatic with the force in which they teach it, while some are more sublime with this message. Either way, it’s out there for all to hear.

I consider the "unworthiness pronouncements" to be one of the major defects in Pauline Christendom. Much of the "teaching" of religions derived from that source emphasize the unworthiness of humans and exalt the "glory of god".

People are convinced (often from childhood) to consider themselves and others as "unworthy" (or sinful or evil or wicked).

A popular business model for religions as well as other enterprises is

1. Create a Need

2. Fill the need

3. Charge a Fee

In religion the "need" can be created by convincing people they are "sinful". In the cosmetics industry the "need" is created by convincing people they are unattractive.

Religion then provides the "solution" – "salvation from eternal damnation" (conveniently provided by the same "gods"). Cosmetics companies provide make-up.

BOTH industries charge for their product (calling one form "donations" or "tithing" or "voluntary contributions" does NOT change the nature of the income). The cosmetics industry admits that it makes a profit.


I understand that religious proselytization and recruitment during adulthood is often focused toward the "downtrodden" and to those who are at personal and emotional low points in life (incarceration, homelessness, hunger, abandonment, etc). It is difficult to sell religious services (after childhood) to those who are fulfilled, satisfied, confident in life – just as it is difficult to sell cosmetics to those who are comfortable and satisfied with their natural appearance.

If we continue to wallow in the swamps of inferiority, we are not genuinely accepting the gift of love.

Wallowing in inferiority or cultivating inferiority is not to the advantage of the individual – regardless of religious beliefs.

I think if we can continue to make mistakes and learn from them – becoming closer to the nature of God – we are essentially doing God’s will. (IMO – this is to become more loving people)

I agree that humans will continue to make mistakes. Some learn from their mistakes or the mistakes of others – some do not – without necessity of any implication of "become closer to god" or "do god's will".

[justifyothers]

I supose if I was truly worthy I could save myself but since CHRIST had to come and do it for me, what does that make it.

100% love, mercy and grace on the part of GOD, I did not contribute anything, so what would make me worthy? nothing.

Nope - it's not about 'saving' yourself. It IS about Jesus/God feeling that you are worthy to be saved, thus, worthy of His love.

That just it, no one can save themself, no one can even know GOD untill He reveals Himself to them.

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=10805

post #5

We're not talking about being able to save yourself. We are talking about being 'worthy' of God's love. Go on all you want about being able to save yourself - I probably won't argue. However, do you feel "worthy" of God's love?

Are you contributing anything now? If you are a christian, you should have a 'relationship' with God. A relationship involves two. Are you saying that you allow God to do all the work, while you sit back & reap the benefits of feeling unworthy?

Now I work for GOD, His SPIRIT empowers me so I may serve Him.

Do you think CHRIST was joking here?

Without Me you can do nothing.


John 15
The True Vine
1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;[a] and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.[/quote]

Yes. I am familiar with the verse. Just not sure how it proved any point you were making. Sorry. Maybe you can explain.......

[drs]

I supose if I was truly worthy I could save myself but since CHRIST had to come and do it for me, what does that make it.

100% love, mercy and grace on the part of GOD, I did not contribute anything, so what would make me worthy? nothing.

Nope - it's not about 'saving' yourself. It IS about Jesus/God feeling that you are worthy to be saved, thus, worthy of His love.

That just it, no one can save themself, no one can even know GOD untill He reveals Himself to them.

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=10805

post #5

We're not talking about being able to save yourself. We are talking about being 'worthy' of God's love. Go on all you want about being able to save yourself - I probably won't argue. However, do you feel "worthy" of God's love?

Please quote the scipture that says we were worthy to be saved.

I looked up worthy and Honestly I can not think of a single thing that would make me worthy of GOD'S love or to be saved, I am sorry I do not posses these qualities.




http://www.thefreedictionary.com/worthy
wor·thy (wûr)
adj. wor·thi·er, wor·thi·est
1. Having worth, merit, or value; useful or valuable.
2. Honorable; admirable: a worthy fellow.
3. Having sufficient worth; deserving: worthy to be revered; worthy of acclaim.
n. pl. wor·thies
An eminent or distinguished person.


I can tell you this though, the day GOD put His SPIRIT in me I became worth something, now I have value because I have the SPIRIT of GOD in me who is the WORTHIEST and to be REVERED ABOVE ALL,

ALL GLORY TO GOD, AMEN.

Are you contributing anything now? If you are a christian, you should have a 'relationship' with God. A relationship involves two. Are you saying that you allow God to do all the work, while you sit back & reap the benefits of feeling unworthy?

Now I work for GOD, His SPIRIT empowers me so I may serve Him.

Do you think CHRIST was joking here?

Without Me you can do nothing.

John 15
The True Vine
1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;[a] and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

Yes. I am familiar with the verse. Just not sure how it proved any point you were making. Sorry. Maybe you can explain.....

Are you sure this is not a pride thing that you can not get over, this need to be worthy in the sight of ALL MIGHTY GOD?

I am sorry sinners do not come worthy to GOD, CHRIST has to work in them and fix, change, mould and shape them so they can be usefull.

And the meaning here is exactly that, without the SPIRIT of GOD in you, you are worthless.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Page 1 Post 4:

Agreed & I feel the same way. What if all the claims aren't true? What if God is really good - and what we read in the bible are just mens' perceptions of Him?

How are we to know anyone's perception of God is correct?
I do agree with your statement coming up that one's personal perception is sufficient evidence for them to base their assumptions or conclusions on (though still doubt such reflects reality).

I see no reason to 'truly accept' biblical tales until they can be shown to rise above the level of myth. That Jesus allegedly died on the cross for my sins is a useless phrase considering I'm still condemned to hell for what sins I commit. Seems Jesus' death was an empty effort.

You use the bible here as a tool to perpetuate your myth theory, then turn around and use it in your favor concerning 'hell' - interesting.

I can see how it reads that way. I was using the story of Jesus as an example of why I contend the Bible is myth, and not a reflection of reality.

I know - but remember, I am basing most of my ideas on personal experience. That which we know cannot be proven/disproven. Hence, is a valid, until proven otherwise, form of argument. Now, if you had proof that I am a tool short, I'd say "go ahead" with your rebuke of these ideas. Until then, perhaps they could be considered, with your kind recognition

That is why I like and respect you so much. I 'preciate that you clearly state the nature of your evidence, or your position.
If you say you've personally experienced a god, who am I to say you're wrong? I can't discount anyone's personal experience as it relates to a god or gods. I do note however there are several opinions / theories about how religious belief can come about.

With much respect to Miss justifyothers, this OP seems like preaching more than anything else.

Sorry it came across that way - this may have been directed more at believers and I'm sorry if I put it in the wrong place. As always, a pleasure to hear fom you.

Notice I used the word 'seems'; my take could very well be wrong. It's there more for the observer to think about than an absolute declaration. I wish I hadda clarified such.

It is always nice to hear from you as well. Here's hoping all the puddles you stomp are full

There's little by way of evidence for much of what is implied or claimed herein, and it really just comes down to an interpretation of the motives of a god or person we have scant evidence to base such interpretations on.

I know, but don't you think it could be an interesting discussion?

Certainly. My only issue would be how can we quantify whether a given take on a religious notion could be found to be accurate. While I personally consider your take a very appealling alternative to so much of the dogma I hear, we are still left with how to know who's take is correct, or closer to correct.

Do you see anything worthwhile in what I said?

Definitely, I would love to know your take on the OP is the correct one.
Going back to the OP:

Perhaps we should truly accept the act of Jesus – realizing that if we weren’t worthy, he wouldn’t have died for us, and/or God wouldn’t have approved this.

I see this take as far superior to the notion that folks are unworthy of the proposed sacrifice. To me, I read this as coming from someone who values others' lives, as well as their own.

As an atheist, I read your OP to be along the lines of a plea for folks to value themselves and by extension others as equally as the proposed sacrifice of Jesus may be considered to be. This, to me, is a wonderful sentiment, and worthy for others to read and take that lesson to heart, if only as a teaching story.

My only issue here is how can we know anyone's take is more correct than another's? Lacking a way to verify such, there's just no way to know.