Thought experiment regarding free will

[Celsus]

Let's assume there are two identical universes (like carbon copies or clones).

In both of them exists 'John'. Both Johns have experienced exactly the same things in exactly the same situations at exactly the same time. They feel and think exactly the same up to that point. And they are now both faced with an identical question (like, I dunno, 'do I want to become a missionary?' or 'do you I want to steal that wallet?').

Could they give different answers? Please explain why or why not in your comments.

Thank you.

[McCulloch]

I am a determinist. If the two universes were truly identical (right down to the quantum scales), then there is no reason to believe that their actions could be different.

[Celsus]

I am a determinist. If the two universes were truly identical (right down to the quantum scales), then there is no reason to believe that their actions could be different.

I agree.

It'd be interesting to have some indeterminists' views too though. I hope we'll get those as well.

[Cathar1950]

I am a determinist. If the two universes were truly identical (right down to the quantum scales), then there is no reason to believe that their actions could be different.

I agree.

It'd be interesting to have some indeterminists' views too though. I hope we'll get those as well.

I also agree!
Even in a world where there is determinism at the subatomic level by the time our constructed world is presented at a level where we are effected it is determined along the lines of probability.

[cnorman18]

I feel compelled to point out, once again, that discussions like this one do not and cannot have any practical application or consequences at all, and are therefore entirely theoretical and moot.

Even if we do not, in some theoretical/philosophical sense, REALLY have free will, we seem to be constrained to behave as if we do; therefore, in a practical sense, the question has no importance. It is profoundly trivial.

The question has no importance in a religious sense, either. All religions assume that humans have free will as a foundational axiom, else what is the point of moral laws or codes or commandments?

Neither does it have the least significance in a philosophical sense. If humans do not have free will, then our thoughts are as predetermined as our actions, and we have no reason to think that any judgment we make, including this one, has any objective value whatever; indeed, we have no reason to think that we "think" at all. We can only react, and our thoughts have no more philosophical significance than tripping over a stone. Nothing, quite literally, can have any meaning or matter at all. We are no longer beings, but particles.

If your thoughts are predetermined in advance, how can your "reasoning" on this subject or any other have significance? If you say you are a strict determinist, why can I not take that as a confession that you believe your ideas are meaningless reactions as opposed to meaningful reasoning in which your mind and will plays a significant role? And if you insist that your ideas DO mean something, why is that not special pleading?

As I've said before, when someone can show me how and why I get to stop having to decide what to eat for breakfast, I'll agree that this subject has some nontrivial importance. Otherwise, I'll continue to regard it as being of equal significance to "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"

Not that I'm saying that you guys can't discuss it, or shouldn't. Hell, I like to play board games, too. Just not this one.

[Cathar1950]

I can’t see how you can defend any idea of free-will as it hardly seems defined.
It seems to be some vague notion of choice. If you mean choice then I have no problem but if you mean some will or choice that isn’t determined by all we have learned, experienced and are including our environments and context. All seems determined.
But maybe I see a problem is the way it is being addressed.

cnorman18:

If your thoughts are predetermined in advance, how can your "reasoning" on this subject or any other have significance?

What is “Determined� is determined at the time of the occasion and not predetermined.
I also have a problem with “predetermined in advanced� as it seem redundant.
Being determined is not the same as being predetermined. The determination comes at the moment and there may very well not be the condition in the future that need occur before some entity or cause determines the next occasion. Each moment is determined by its past and possible futures. Even if it is your mood making you choose one option ofver another the moos has been determined by the other factors such as amount of sleep, how regualar you felt, or the neighbor kid crying. All these things determine or responses or choices. Have you ever asked anyone why they did something? You are assuming what they did was determined by some reasons or factors and not because some free willful spirit living in you. Most of our responses are either learned or inherited from our ancestors.
Most of what we do is unconscious and can hardly be called free or will.
Many argue against such determinism because the fear some lack of responsibility. But the agent is still responsible and even our court try to recognize when they are not. But if some crime has been committed we usually try t do something to change their behavior and cause other more desirable responses that are determined by either learning or forced control.
Even our responses to unwanted behaviors have been determined.
Because they are determined we can eliminated undesirable responses or be open to new ones and the continuance of desirable responses (Notice I prefer responses to choice and over and against will.

If you say you are a strict determinist, why can I not take that as a confession that you believe your ideas are meaningless reactions as opposed to meaningful reasoning in which your mind and will plays a significant role?

How does this follow?
Why would they be meaningless? It seems because or ideas among other things determine us we would find them even more meaningful.
I wonder why your mind does anything or bothers to learn. Why master something where it becomes almost unconscious responses if it takes away your choices your so fond of or why is anything meaningful to you at all as you little invisible guy making random indeterminate choices?

And if you insist that your ideas DO mean something, why is that not special pleading?

How is it special pleading?
I would wonder why anyone would try and persuade someone if they didn't think their words or deeds didn't make a difference because he person would just use their will.

[cnorman18]

Yeah, I think we've been here before, Cathar. Of course I mean choice.

I'm not denying that everything we think or do is influenced by what has happened to us; To deny that would be ludicrous.

I have trouble with the word "determined," though. I think our own rational thoughts and reasoning can and do have an impact as well - and will is involved there, even to the extent of whether or not to think about a given choice at all.

I just think the idea that we are compelled to think what we think and do what we do, and have no choice or responsibility in those matters, essentially declares humans to be objects and denies the existence, or at least the significance, of human thought. And I think that's ludicrous too.

[Cathar1950]

Yeah, I think we've been here before, Cathar. Of course I mean choice.

I'm not denying that everything we think or do is influenced by what has happened to us; To deny that would be ludicrous.

I have trouble with the word "determined," though. I think our own rational thoughts and reasoning can and do have an impact as well - and will is involved there, even to the extent of whether or not to think about a given choice at all.

I just think the idea that we are compelled to think what we think and do what we do, and have no choice or responsibility in those matters, essentially declares humans to be objects and denies the existence, or at least the significance, of human thought. And I think that's ludicrous too.

It is not that we don't have choice or responsibility. Those choices and responsibility are all determined by what we have learned and conditioned, including reason which is another factor or condition. Try not to think.
Predetermined is not the same as determined.

[Brad-sd]

Let's assume there are two identical universes (like carbon copies or clones).

In both of them exists 'John'. Both Johns have experienced exactly the same things in exactly the same situations at exactly the same time. They feel and think exactly the same up to that point. And they are now both faced with an identical question (like, I dunno, 'do I want to become a missionary?' or 'do you I want to steal that wallet?').

Could they give different answers? Please explain why or why not in your comments.

Thank you.

I can give you my short answer. No.

If it were possible, the two universes would have diverged long before John arrived at this point.

[Homicidal_Cherry53]

I am a determinist. If the two universes were truly identical (right down to the quantum scales), then there is no reason to believe that their actions could be different.

I agree.

But what if, at a quantum level, they were different, and, at the quantum scale, everything became unpredictable and random, as it appears to be in our universe? Would differences at the quantum level affect the two universes enough to influence John's decision or even affect his creation?