What's the beef with Catholics?

[ithinkthereforeiam]

What is the beef other Christian denominations have with the Catholics? What do you have in common? What are the disagreements?

[MagusYanam]

I guess my biggest 'beef' with Catholics is how the Church has set up patriarchal dominance hierarchies which belie the very existential and political purpose of the Church, which is to be the 'upside-down kingdom'. I read a Gospel which portrays women as the most faithful, loving and steadfast disciples of Jesus, given the command at the end of the Gospel to proclaim the empty tomb and the risen Christ, and behold in the Roman Catholic Church a power structure which is completely barred to women, and which attempts to regulate and dominate all aspects of the female communicant's life, and I can't help but be struck by the sick irony.

They do do a lot of good in the world, but there is an existential contradiction at the very core of the Catholic Church, in that they have yet to take seriously Jesus' promise of a society transformed (one sees this in their troubled history with the problem of modernity and with liberation theology).

[scottlittlefield17]

Another problem that there is with the Catholics is that they say that the only way to get your sins forgiven is by going through priests. That is not Biblical. It does say to confess our faults to each other but it is clear that we have direct access to God through JESUS not through priests. Read Hebrews it explains how Jesus is our priest.

[MagusYanam]

This is a good point, scottlittlefield17. I'm also not a fan of a mediated faith, of a priest bearing the responsibility for another's sins before God - das Priestertum aller Gläubigen is a much-needed, I would even say liberating doctrine. But I would step back a bit and make the claim that the fullness of our access to and experience of God is through engagement with our community as Christians - through communion in the Body of Christ (which is the Church).

[scottlittlefield17]

I would say that Christians should be a family that we can confess to and encourage and help each other through problems. But to lift a mediator above Jesus and the Holy Spirit (The Bible says he intercedes for us with indescribable groans) I don't believe is right.

[GentleDove]

What is the beef other Christian denominations have with the Catholics? What do you have in common? What are the disagreements?

I would argue that Roman Catholicism, the religion or professed system of beliefs, is a Christian heresy that has strayed drastically from the Biblical written word about what Christianity is, in terms of central Christian doctrines regarding God, man, sin, grace, salvation, the role of the Church, baptism, prayer, the Lord’s Supper, etc.

I think that some individual Catholics are true Christians in that they do not believe the false teachings and false gospel of the Roman Catholic Church, but rather believe what the Bible says in spite of the official Catholic teachings and traditions which oppose the Bible. I would urge those brethren to leave the Catholic Church, and assemble with a church which teaches the Bible faithfully. Be honest and faithful to God.

"For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged." (Rom. 3:3-4)

My “beef� with Catholicism (not necessarily with those who profess Catholicism, per say) is that the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church contradict the Bible. The Church sets itself up as authoritative over and in judgment of God and the Bible, the same as all non-believers do.

A person can’t believe in the Word of God (Jesus Christ-Jn 1:1) and, at the same time, not believe in the Word of God (the enscripturated mind of God given by inspiration of the Holy Spirit-2 Tim. 3:16) which tells us Who Jesus Christ is.

God does not change (Mal. 3:6), and cannot lie (Heb. 6:18) and in Him there is no confusion (Is. 41:29, 1 Cor. 14:33) or contradiction (Acts 16:35, James 3:16). The Holy Spirit doesn’t tell the prophets and apostles over the centuries one thing, and then tell a pope another thing that contradicts what He said before (Deut. 4:2, Ps. 89:34, Matt. 7:15, Gal. 1:6-9).

Catholics cannot really believe both the Biblical claims and the Roman Catholic Church claims when they are in direct contradiction to each other. Logically, either one claim is false, or they are both false. They cannot both be true.

"No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." (Matt. 6:24)

"He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad." (Matt. 12:30)

"A double minded man is unstable in all his ways." (James 1:8)

[MagusYanam]

GentleDove, I'm not saying I disagree with you here, but you would probably be wise to state clearly which assertions of the Catholic Church you believe to be contradictory to Scripture. I think there are assertions that the Catholic Church makes which are contrary to Scripture and to the existential purpose of Christianity (such as the creation of dominance hierarchies which place men over women, clergy over laity, nobility over commoners, uniformity of thinking as enforced by the pope, &c.), but those may or may not be what you're talking about.

At the same time, it is improper for Christians to set up dominance hierarchies of believers over non-believers. A good Samaritan can come from anywhere; even non-Christians can receive the power of the Holy Spirit to do good works.

[GentleDove]

GentleDove, I'm not saying I disagree with you here, but you would probably be wise to state clearly which assertions of the Catholic Church you believe to be contradictory to Scripture. I think there are assertions that the Catholic Church makes which are contrary to Scripture and to the existential purpose of Christianity (such as the creation of dominance hierarchies which place men over women, clergy over laity, nobility over commoners, uniformity of thinking as enforced by the pope, &c.), but those may or may not be what you're talking about.

For this post, I will try to concentrate on the Catholic doctrine of the papacy and the priest. I will attempt to show--by juxtaposing Catholic doctrine and Biblical Christian doctrine--that Catholic doctrine is a usurpation of Christ’s roles as head and high priest of the church.

The Catholic Church teaches that the pope is also called the “Vicar of Jesus Christ,� a title which is “expressive of his supreme headship of the Church on earth, which he bears in virtue of the commission of Christ and with vicarial power derived from Him.�
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15403b.htm

The Bible, however, says that Christ is the Head of the Church:

And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. (Eph. 1:19-23)

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. (Col. 1:16-20)

The Catholic Church teaches that Catholics need priests to carry out the “Eucharistic Sacrifice,� the figure and renewal of Christ’s sacrifice at Calvary. Also that with the ordination of the Church, the priest is “invested with powers� to forgive sins and to sanctify. Also, the bishop is like the high priest of the Old Testament and has the “fullness of the priesthood.�
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12406a.htm

However, the Bible teaches, especially in the Book of Hebrews, that the Old Testament “high priest� was a pre-figure of Christ and that only God has the power to forgive sins and to sanctify people.

Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. (Heb. 2:17)

Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, [the church] which the Lord pitched, and not man. (Heb. 8:1-2)

But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; [the Church, being made up of Christian believers] Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. (Heb. 9:11-12)

Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; [the Church] Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. (Heb. 10:19-22)

Christians do not need a Catholic priest or pope to be an intermediary between us and God. The Christian may approach God directly by Christ; Christ Jesus is our intermediary (Jn. 14:6, 1 Tim. 2:5, Heb. 10:19-22 quoted above). This is just a long-winded way of agreeing with scottlittlefield17's posts on this page.