Muslims worship Muhammad…

Argue for and against religions and philosophies which are not Christian

Moderator: Moderators

Locked
User avatar
Pazuzu bin Hanbi
Sage
Posts: 569
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:54 pm
Location: Kefitzat Haderech

Muslims worship Muhammad…

Post #1

Post by Pazuzu bin Hanbi »

OK, now no muslim would state that they worship Muhammad. They may even believe that they worship Allah alone, but their actions and creedal testimonies put Muhammad in a position that other religions reserve for God. Even Yeshua‘ in the Bible, and ancient Assyrians, as well as other pagan groups, exhorted that we as people imitate God to achieve the Good Life. Yeshua‘, for example, repeatedly states that people should copy God’s sense of mercy, justice, etc. Muslims, however, do their utmost to emulate Muhammad.

A couple of quotes. The first from the excellent contemporary scholarly book called Muslims: Their religious beliefs and practices by Andrew Rippin (don’t let the title fool you — he delves deep into the various elements that have combined to form Islam from its pre–history to the present day and includes current scholarship on Islam, challenging traditionally–accepted views on Islamic ‘history’):
While Muslims may think those who deny the existence of God or who utter blasphemies about Him are misguided, such discussions will not offend in the same manner in which discussions over Muhammad will. Those who insinuate evil of Muhammad or who cast aspersions on him are considered to be insulting Islam. This, upon consideration, is not surprising.


I know this myself, from having grown up in an Islamic community. It means muslims put Muhammad at the centre of Islam, not Allah! And the reactions Rippin notes above made me recall a passage I read in an autobiographical work by Ziauddin Sardar, a well–written and witty, not to mention interesting, book called Desperately Seeking Paradise. In this extract Sardar details his reaction to reading Rushdie’s The Satanic Verses:
Rushdie had plundered everything I hold dear and despoiled the inner sanctum of my identity. Every word was directed at me and I took everything personally. This is how, I remember thinking, it must feel to be raped… The life of the Prophet Muhammad is the source of Muslim identity. Muslims do not merely emulate his character and personality and follow his sayings and actions: it is the Prophet Muhammad who provides them with the ultimate reason for being a Muslim.

I do wonder if he or others would react like this if someone spoke out against Allah as opposed to Muhammad. Presented for your consideration: the reaction of muslims worldwide to the Danish cartoons (nobody lampooned Allah, only Muhammad), and the case of the Teddy Bear Named Muhammad (I recall some sources referring to this as ‘blasphemy’ — surely only a crime against God ranks as blasphemy?).
لا إلـــــــــــــــــــــــــــه

User avatar
Wyvern
Under Probation
Posts: 3059
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 3:50 pm

Re: Muslims worship Muhammad�

Post #301

Post by Wyvern »

I'am still in subject, I gave you reply that in Philipines Christians forced their religion, but you said we are not talking about Philipines, we are talking about Sudan, I posted already that Sudan was also changed to christianity. so its you who change the subject, still I give you replies, but you can;t answer, and always say that its not related to topic:)
How are the Phillipines related to Sudan? As the link you provided stated Sudan was peacefully converted by Koptic missionaries and afterwards was forcefully converted by an army of muslims. It is not my problem that you do not want to believe the very link you gave that you thought proved your point.
I gave explanation that PBUH is for every prophet, whenever a muslim name a prophet, its used pbuh. and this full prayer is also given in post, that its said "May Allah have peace and blessing on him. but in short its writen as (pbuh).
So its God muslims pray to have peace and blessing on a prophet.
If it actually meant what you say the acronym would be different.

Or to make it easy for you, bring any statement of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), where its said that muslims should woprship him
By that same logic then christians do not worship Jesus since nowhere in the bible does he say that he should be worshipped. Are you implying christians are not christian?

TrueReligion
Banned
Banned
Posts: 1385
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:03 am

Re: Muslims worship Muhammad�

Post #302

Post by TrueReligion »

Wyvern wrote:
I'am still in subject, I gave you reply that in Philipines Christians forced their religion, but you said we are not talking about Philipines, we are talking about Sudan, I posted already that Sudan was also changed to christianity. so its you who change the subject, still I give you replies, but you can;t answer, and always say that its not related to topic:)
How are the Phillipines related to Sudan? As the link you provided stated Sudan was peacefully converted by Koptic missionaries and afterwards was forcefully converted by an army of muslims. It is not my problem that you do not want to believe the very link you gave that you thought proved your point.

Its not given in link that sudan was converted into christianity peacefully, is it writen that forcefully it was converted to Islam? why you r changing the meanings from your own? its a not a fair debate Wyvern
And philipines was brought as an example that how forcefully christians convert this country to christianity

I gave explanation that PBUH is for every prophet, whenever a muslim
name a prophet, its used pbuh. and this full prayer is also given in post, that its said "May Allah have peace and blessing on him. but in short its writen as (pbuh).
So its God muslims pray to have peace and blessing on a prophet.
If it actually meant what you say the acronym would be different.

Acronym is used as short Wyvern, When Jesus said to diciples, "Peace on you", does it means Jesus is worshiping diciples? (Luke 10-15, Luke 24:36)
Or to make it easy for you, bring any statement of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), where its said that muslims should woprship him
By that same logic then christians do not worship Jesus since nowhere in the bible does he say that he should be worshipped. Are you implying christians are not christian?
I said already that nowhere in Bible is writen that Jesus is God, or that he should be worshiped, but Christians do, how and why, ask them not me:)

Rest for (PBUH), Its a prayer asking God to have peace and blessing on the person.
Still you didnt show me any proof, of what I ask from you.

User avatar
Wyvern
Under Probation
Posts: 3059
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 3:50 pm

Re: Muslims worship Muhammad�

Post #303

Post by Wyvern »

Its not given in link that sudan was converted into christianity peacefully, is it writen that forcefully it was converted to Islam? why you r changing the meanings from your own? its a not a fair debate Wyvern
And philipines was brought as an example that how forcefully christians convert this country to christianity
Missionaries go into an area alone as an act of faith and many times they died for that faith but in the 500's there were no christian armies to invade an area even if they wanted to, your article states that an islamic army invaded and converted most of the country. It's amazing how you deny muslims have ever forcefully converted anyone but are convinced christians only convert people by force, you want fairness start it with yourself.
Acronym is used as short Wyvern, When Jesus said to diciples, "Peace on you", does it means Jesus is worshiping diciples? (Luke 10-15, Luke 24:36)
They were speaking to him and it was a normal greeting for the time.
Or to make it easy for you, bring any statement of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), where its said that muslims should woprship him
By that same logic then christians do not worship Jesus since nowhere in the bible does he say that he should be worshipped. Are you implying christians are not christian?
I said already that nowhere in Bible is writen that Jesus is God, or that he should be worshiped, but Christians do, how and why, ask them not me:)[/quote]
Nowhere in the koran is it written that mohammed should be worshipped but muslims do, how and why ask them not me.
Rest for (PBUH), Its a prayer asking God to have peace and blessing on the person.
You still claim this but the acronym is all wrong for what you are claiming.

TrueReligion
Banned
Banned
Posts: 1385
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:03 am

Re: Muslims worship Muhammad�

Post #304

Post by TrueReligion »

Wyvern wrote:
Its not given in link that sudan was converted into christianity peacefully, is it writen that forcefully it was converted to Islam? why you r changing the meanings from your own? its a not a fair debate Wyvern
And philipines was brought as an example that how forcefully christians convert this country to christianity
Missionaries go into an area alone as an act of faith and many times they died for that faith but in the 500's there were no christian armies to invade an area even if they wanted to, your article states that an islamic army invaded and converted most of the country. It's amazing how you deny muslims have ever forcefully converted anyone but are convinced christians only convert people by force, you want fairness start it with yourself.

Its your assumption Wyvern that missionaries worked peacefully, did you went with them? did you saw it? wats the basis of your claim? only that the word army is not used does;nt mean that it was spread peacefully.
If Christianity was spread peacefuly in Africa as you say, why there was racism and slavery made by white people in Africa?
Why even they were forced into christianity, seperate church were made for Blacks,and they were not allowed to enter white-men church?
Your statements are truly wrong and very weak Wyvern. I gave you already the example of Philipines, that how it was forced into christianity, but you just ignored that point, as its going against your views and statements. So who is fair now?

Acronym is used as short Wyvern, When Jesus said to diciples, "Peace on you", does it means Jesus is worshiping diciples? (Luke 10-15, Luke 24:36)
They were speaking to him and it was a normal greeting for the time.

wow, wat a clean jumo you make Wyvern:) this proves your logic for debate :D
Or to make it easy for you, bring any statement of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), where its said that muslims should woprship him
By that same logic then christians do not worship Jesus since nowhere in the bible does he say that he should be worshipped. Are you implying christians are not christian?
I said already that nowhere in Bible is writen that Jesus is God, or that he should be worshiped, but Christians do, how and why, ask them not me:)
Nowhere in the koran is it written that mohammed should be worshipped but muslims do, how and why ask them not me.
Rest for (PBUH), Its a prayer asking God to have peace and blessing on the person.
You still claim this but the acronym is all wrong for what you are claiming.[/quote]

You have to be a muslim or arab to understand this Wyvern, bring proof of any verse or saying of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), where he said to worship him.
This is last option for you, if you can;t bring, consider yourself lost in this argument
"Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish." [Qur''''an 17:81)

User avatar
Wyvern
Under Probation
Posts: 3059
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 3:50 pm

Re: Muslims worship Muhammad�

Post #305

Post by Wyvern »

Its your assumption Wyvern that missionaries worked peacefully, did you went with them? did you saw it? wats the basis of your claim? only that the word army is not used does;nt mean that it was spread peacefully.

The basis of my claim is nearly two millenia of it happening even up to this day. If a conversion was done by a missionary it was done without force. Or are you saying the missionaries that went to convert the vikings(and often were killed)forced them to convert? What proof then do you have then that the christian conversions in Sudan were not peacefully done? I think you are assuming christianity converts the same way that islam does.
If Christianity was spread peacefuly in Africa as you say, why there was racism and slavery made by white people in Africa?
Why even they were forced into christianity, seperate church were made for Blacks,and they were not allowed to enter white-men church?
Your statements are truly wrong and very weak Wyvern. I gave you already the example of Philipines, that how it was forced into christianity, but you just ignored that point, as its going against your views and statements. So who is fair now?
We are still talking about Sudan which was converted to koptic christianity from missionaries from what is now Ethiopia in such there was no racism since both groups were black. If you want to get into a discussion about racism in colonial africa that is a big and convoluted tale and worthy of a thread all its own but it is also over a millenia after the time period we are talking about here. Once we are done talking about Sudan we can talk about the Phillipines if you want but trying to do both at the same time will just confuse the matter.
Acronym is used as short Wyvern, When Jesus said to diciples, "Peace on you", does it means Jesus is worshiping diciples? (Luke 10-15, Luke 24:36)
They were speaking to him and it was a normal greeting for the time.

wow, wat a clean jumo you make Wyvern:) this proves your logic for debate :D
What is a jumo? that is not a word in english. When I went to church when I was young there was a point in the mass when we would shake the hands of the people around us and say peace be with you, were we worshiping each other? no it was simply a greeting.
You have to be a muslim or arab to understand this Wyvern, bring proof of any verse or saying of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), where he said to worship him.
This is last option for you, if you can;t bring, consider yourself lost in this argument
Show anywhere in the bible where Jesus says he should be worshipped.

TrueReligion
Banned
Banned
Posts: 1385
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:03 am

Re: Muslims worship Muhammad�

Post #306

Post by TrueReligion »

Wyvern wrote:
Its your assumption Wyvern that missionaries worked peacefully, did you went with them? did you saw it? wats the basis of your claim? only that the word army is not used does;nt mean that it was spread peacefully.

The basis of my claim is nearly two millenia of it happening even up to this day. If a conversion was done by a missionary it was done without force. Or are you saying the missionaries that went to convert the vikings(and often were killed)forced them to convert? What proof then do you have then that the christian conversions in Sudan were not peacefully done? I think you are assuming christianity converts the same way that islam does.

If you say that Christian missionaries convert people peacefully, thn why you can;t justify example of Philipines?
Can you show which army went to Indonesia of muslims, and convert indonesians, which is now the biggest muslim population country of the world?
Dont make statements Wyvern, bring proof, statements dont work here, you know well

If Christianity was spread peacefuly in Africa as you say, why there was racism and slavery made by white people in Africa?
Why even they were forced into christianity, seperate church were made for Blacks,and they were not allowed to enter white-men church?
Your statements are truly wrong and very weak Wyvern. I gave you already the example of Philipines, that how it was forced into christianity, but you just ignored that point, as its going against your views and statements. So who is fair now?
We are still talking about Sudan which was converted to koptic christianity from missionaries from what is now Ethiopia in such there was no racism since both groups were black. If you want to get into a discussion about racism in colonial africa that is a big and convoluted tale and worthy of a thread all its own but it is also over a millenia after the time period we are talking about here. Once we are done talking about Sudan we can talk about the Phillipines if you want but trying to do both at the same time will just confuse the matter.

We were talking in general Wyvern, and just Sudan was quoted as an example by you, in general we were talking about all the african countries, and when I showed you other african countries, you just run away as usual, even example of Philipines you can;t justify till now.
Its not confusing the matter, you dont have proof to answer me, thn you are making fake statements and making excuses of delaying of topic and other stuff:)
Why not admit now that you can;t bring any proof

Acronym is used as short Wyvern, When Jesus said to diciples, "Peace on you", does it means Jesus is worshiping diciples? (Luke 10-15, Luke 24:36)
They were speaking to him and it was a normal greeting for the time.

wow, wat a clean jumo you make Wyvern:) this proves your logic for debate :D
What is a jumo? that is not a word in english. When I went to church when I was young there was a point in the mass when we would shake the hands of the people around us and say peace be with you, were we worshiping each other? no it was simply a greeting.

So, How come (Peace be upon him) seems an act of worship to you Wyvern? when in the court a lawyer say that "Me Lord" does it means that the judge is the lord and god of the lawyer? does it sound an act of worship to you?
You have to be a muslim or arab to understand this Wyvern, bring proof of any verse or saying of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), where he said to worship him.
This is last option for you, if you can;t bring, consider yourself lost in this argument
Show anywhere in the bible where Jesus says he should be worshipped.
Sorry Wyvern, you got your last try, youve lost it now, as plenty of options and time was given to you.
"Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish." [Qur''''an 17:81)

User avatar
Wyvern
Under Probation
Posts: 3059
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 3:50 pm

Re: Muslims worship Muhammad�

Post #307

Post by Wyvern »

If you say that Christian missionaries convert people peacefully, thn why you can;t justify example of Philipines?
Can you show which army went to Indonesia of muslims, and convert indonesians, which is now the biggest muslim population country of the world?
Dont make statements Wyvern, bring proof, statements dont work here, you know well
We are talking about Sudan, not to mention this entire subject is off topic. I used the proof you brought to support your argument about Sudan it isn't my fault you never bothered to find out how missionaries work.
We were talking in general Wyvern, and just Sudan was quoted as an example by you, in general we were talking about all the african countries, and when I showed you other african countries, you just run away as usual, even example of Philipines you can;t justify till now.
Its not confusing the matter, you dont have proof to answer me, thn you are making fake statements and making excuses of delaying of topic and other stuff:)
Why not admit now that you can;t bring any proof
I have not commented on anything other than Sudan, but since you are so big on bringing proof let's see you proof of your statements about the Phillipines and ALL the rest of africa. Since you want to talk about everything at once let us see your proof that every single african country was forcefully converted to christianity as you claim. Time for you to put up or shut up.
So, How come (Peace be upon him) seems an act of worship to you Wyvern? when in the court a lawyer say that "Me Lord" does it means that the judge is the lord and god of the lawyer? does it sound an act of worship to you?
That is an honorific used in british courts. None of the examples are the founder of a religion.
Sorry Wyvern, you got your last try, youve lost it now, as plenty of options and time was given to you.
So you can not bring any evidence that Jesus told his followers to worship him which is just the same thing that can be said about Mohammed.

TrueReligion
Banned
Banned
Posts: 1385
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:03 am

Re: Muslims worship Muhammad�

Post #308

Post by TrueReligion »

Wyvern wrote:
If you say that Christian missionaries convert people peacefully, thn why you can;t justify example of Philipines?
Can you show which army went to Indonesia of muslims, and convert indonesians, which is now the biggest muslim population country of the world?
Dont make statements Wyvern, bring proof, statements dont work here, you know well
We are talking about Sudan, not to mention this entire subject is off topic. I used the proof you brought to support your argument about Sudan it isn't my fault you never bothered to find out how missionaries work.

And how we started talking about Sudan? the discussion was, when you said that Islam was spread by force in Africa,, and it was a general topic about spread of religion, till now you have;nt given any justification of Christianity by force in Philipines
We were talking in general Wyvern, and just Sudan was quoted as an example by you, in general we were talking about all the african countries, and when I showed you other african countries, you just run away as usual, even example of Philipines you can;t justify till now.
Its not confusing the matter, you dont have proof to answer me, thn you are making fake statements and making excuses of delaying of topic and other stuff:)
Why not admit now that you can;t bring any proof
I have not commented on anything other than Sudan, but since you are so big on bringing proof let's see you proof of your statements about the Phillipines and ALL the rest of africa. Since you want to talk about everything at once let us see your proof that every single african country was forcefully converted to christianity as you claim. Time for you to put up or shut up.

Every1 knows Wyvern, go in history books, and find out, Islam came in Philipines through Indonesia, where no muslim army went, later Spanish came in 1500's and started killing muslims, and forcing them to be converted to Christianity.
So, How come (Peace be upon him) seems an act of worship to you Wyvern? when in the court a lawyer say that "Me Lord" does it means that the judge is the lord and god of the lawyer? does it sound an act of worship to you?
That is an honorific used in british courts. None of the examples are the founder of a religion.

The thing which goes not with you, you just discard it, I can see what a neutral debatar you are Wyvern:)

Sorry Wyvern, you got your last try, youve lost it now, as plenty of options and time was given to you.
So you can not bring any evidence that Jesus told his followers to worship him which is just the same thing that can be said about Mohammed.
I never said that Jesus asked his followers to worship him, you ask christians why they worship Jesus.
Lastly, if muslims were worshiping Muhammad, they wont feel shy telling you, but when 1 such thing is not done, why are you imposing without any proof or evidence?
"Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish." [Qur''''an 17:81)

User avatar
Wyvern
Under Probation
Posts: 3059
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 3:50 pm

Re: Muslims worship Muhammad�

Post #309

Post by Wyvern »

I never said that Jesus asked his followers to worship him, you ask christians why they worship Jesus.
Lastly, if muslims were worshiping Muhammad, they wont feel shy telling you, but when 1 such thing is not done, why are you imposing without any proof or evidence?
You asked whether anything in the koran would show mohammed asking for his followers to worship him and I pointed out the exact same thing is true about christianity thereby disproving that line of reasoning. If you are going to go down the road of looking at the behavior of the current followers then it could be said that islam worships mohammed much more fervently than christians do jesus.

TrueReligion
Banned
Banned
Posts: 1385
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:03 am

Re: Muslims worship Muhammad�

Post #310

Post by TrueReligion »

Wyvern wrote:
I never said that Jesus asked his followers to worship him, you ask christians why they worship Jesus.
Lastly, if muslims were worshiping Muhammad, they wont feel shy telling you, but when 1 such thing is not done, why are you imposing without any proof or evidence?
You asked whether anything in the koran would show mohammed asking for his followers to worship him and I pointed out the exact same thing is true about christianity thereby disproving that line of reasoning. If you are going to go down the road of looking at the behavior of the current followers then it could be said that islam worships mohammed much more fervently than christians do jesus.
Think you dont know about Christianity Wyverm, ask any Christian, they say Jesus is God, they worship him, even Jesus (pbuh) never said that, so its the mistake and blindness of Christian, argue with them not with me.

As yo havent proven anything here, you lost badly Wyvern once again, better dont bring any other statement, it wil be just funny as always your statements look
"Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish." [Qur''''an 17:81)

Locked