Omnipotence

[hightreason]

I was just thinking of this and so I thought I'd search out a forum on which I could post it and see what people think.

One of the leading criticisms of the Christian conceptualisation of God is that he is omnipotent. Without omnipotence, Christians would have to admit to a much less powerful God than what they suppose exists. There have been various arguments for the impossibility of omnipotence.

Most of them boil down to this: Can God create a rock that is too heavy for God to lift?

That seems on its face to completely disprove omnipotence. The answer to the question has to be yes or no. If it's yes, then God would not be able to lift the rock and would therefore not be omnipotent. If it is no, he would not be able to create the rock and would therefore not be omnipotent. Airtight argument right? I thought so too until yesterday. Today, however, I'm actually going to disprove that argument.

The first thing I need to do is address the point of logical impossibility. For example, can God create a round square? The answer to this question clearly seems to have to be no. This, however, unlike the above argument, is not very compelling evidence at all against God's omnipotence. Despite the fact that the two look very similar on the face, they are, in fact, very different.

Our first argument (about the rock) talks about something that is a contingent truth. God's ability to lift a rock is contingent (unless you except St. Anselm's argument which brings with it baggage you probably don't want). A square not being round is a necessary truth. It is defined in the definition of the square that it is not round (in Euclidean geometry).

Therefore, when you ask the first question, you are referring to a possibility which really exists, the possibility that someone or something (God) could lift someone or something else (a rock). When you ask the second question, you are just speaking gibberish. The term "round square" doesn't actually refer to anything. It is akin to asking "Can God create a guettedoojazzle?" The answer to that question, therefore, is not "no," but rather "what the hell are you talking about?"

God cannot create logically impossible things because logically impossible things are not really things at all but merely silly combinations of words.

The question I really came here to talk about though was that as to whether God can create a rock that he can't lift. I contend that he can create such a rock, and that his ability to do so does not disprove his omnipotence.

Omnipotence is the ability to do anything. However, it is not by definition a permanent ability. Someone could conceivably have omnipotence at one point and then cease to have it. That means that God, if omnipotent right now, could create the rock that he can't lift. After creating it, however, he would cease to be omnipotent as there would be one thing that he could not do.

Now, I know what some of you Christians are thinking. You're thinking that you don't believe in a God that could, at some point, cease to be omnipotent. You believe in a God that is, and always will be, omnipotent. Well, this is not that difficult of a problem to solve, actually.

If God does not want to stop being omnipotent, he will never stop being omnipotent. That's because his omnipotence, will allow him the ability to stop anything from happening that would take away his omnipotence. If this were true, there could be only one being in the world that was omnipotent. Multiple omnipotent beings would screw it up because what if one of them wanted to take away the omnipotence of the other and the other didn't want that... But the good news is that, if you're Christian, you probably already believe that God is the only omnipotent being, so we don't have a problem.

In order to accept this explanation, you would also have to believe that God is fundamentally the type of guy who wants to be omnipotent forever. This doesn't seem that incompatible with Christian beliefs, either, so it shouldn't cause too much problem. It might make him seem a little bit like a megalomaniac, but he kind of is anyway what with creating an entire world full of people who's sole purpose is to worship him.

So, there you have it, folks. It is entirely possible for God to be omnipotent (if there were a God).

[T-mash]

The question is not really a philosophical one as much as a sarcastic one or a rhetorical one. "Can God create a rock that is too heavy for God to lift?" Isn't a question that deserves answering, it's a question that shows just why an omnipotent god could not possible exist. The same thing is: If god is all-knowing, that means he knows his own future. If he knows his own future that means he can't change his own future and is a slave to himself and is therefore not omnipotent. If he CAN change his own future that would mean he wouldn't be able to predict and know his own future, meaning he is not all-knowing. The problem isn't in the question, the problem is in the "all-knowing, all-loving, all-powerfull God" which is quite clearly nonsense to anyone capable of rational thinking. The questions just show us why omnipotence and omniscience are not possible, and why therefore the Christian God is nothing but pure human imagination.

[hightreason]

Thanks for responding. I was beginning to think no one ever would.

You say that "it's a question that shows just why an omnipotent god could not possible exist." However, I believe I made it clear that it does not show that at all. The argument in a nutshell being: God could theoretically do something that would take away his omnipotence. However, his character is such that he would never do such a thing. Also important is that his omniscience would allow him to him to see whether other people are trying to take it away and stop them and also prevent him from mistakenly taking it away himself.

In regard to what you say about omniscience, the fact that he knows his future does not make him a slave. In fact, if he is omnipotent then he can do anything. Whatever he decides to do, he will succeed at, and therefore can know his future even without omniscience. Whatever he has planned for his future is what will happen. Just because he has made his choices long in advance does not mean they are not choices. Imagine that you plan on eating a hamburger for lunch. When lunch comes around you eat a hamburger. You planned for something to happen in the future and made it happen. Were you a "slave to yourself" in this scenerio?

I think that an "all-knowing, all-loving, all-powerfull God" is indeed possible even if unlikely.

[JBlack]

The argument in a nutshell being: God could theoretically do something that would take away his omnipotence. However, his character is such that he would never do such a thing.

1. Is God unable to do something that is outside of His character? (Then He isn't omnipotent)

2. Whether God would ever do it, is besides the point. The question is, does He have the ability to do it.

Also important is that his omniscience would allow him to him to see whether other people are trying to take it away and stop them

Take away God's omnipotence? How?

and also prevent him from mistakenly taking it away himself.

God can make a mistake? That's funny, I've always been told He's perfect.

Imagine that you plan on eating a hamburger for lunch. When lunch comes around you eat a hamburger. You planned for something to happen in the future and made it happen. Were you a "slave to yourself" in this scenerio?

When lunchtime came, you didn't have to eat that Burger. You could of changed your mind and ate a hotdog instead. But you decided to follow your plan. If everything God plans must happen, then He is a slave to His own plan.

[T-mash]

Imagine that you plan on eating a hamburger for lunch. When lunch comes around you eat a hamburger. You planned for something to happen in the future and made it happen. Were you a "slave to yourself" in this scenerio.

Before lunch time comes around I might have been run-over by a car for all I know. I cannot predict my future, I can only aim to try and follow my plans. Whether or not it happens is not entirely in my power. I want to watch tv, I turn on the switch and the power is out. Such a simple plan, yet I can't do it because it's not in my power to finish my plan. God, who is omni-potent, would have no such excuse. Therefore everything he has planned in the future WILL happen, meaning he is a slave to his own future, since he can't change it. If he can change it that means his prediction for the future was inaccurate which means he is: 1) not perfect and 2) not all-knowing.

[Miles]

Omnipotence is the ability to do anything. However, it is not by definition a permanent ability.

Not by definition; however, if god can do absolutely anything why couldn't one of these doings turn out to be making his omnipotence permanent? So, until you ask him about this you really don't know if his omnipotence is truly impermanent or not. So you're in no place to assume they are not.

These so called "problems," only exist because people insist on imbuing their god with impossible attributes without first thinking about the consequences, which, as we see, lead to an impossibility. In all, it simply turns out to be a pretty neat thing if one can claim their god has omni advantageous characteristics, so why not make the claim? After all, the "why not?" will work as long as no one brings up their impossibilities. And even then their perceived truth will win out because truth almost always takes a back seat to need.

[Random Mind]

Most of them boil down to this: Can God create a rock that is too heavy for God to lift?

That sure is a lot of talkin for this one question

My simple response to your question? You're essentially asking if God is bound by the laws of gravity. Considering that planets seemingly "float" are you asking if God can create an object on earth he can't lift? Are you asking if God came to earth, if he could lift a heavy rock?

Assuming for a moment you lean towards the existence of God, you're asking if he who created gravity is less powerful than it's effects. In which I would ask, why is it important what God can do under the influence of gravity or not?

To quote C.S. Lewis here:

Can a mortal ask questions which God finds unanswerable? Quite easily, I should think. All nonsense questions are unanswerable.

[Miles]

Most of them boil down to this: Can God create a rock that is too heavy for God to lift?

That sure is a lot of talkin for this one question

My simple response to your question? You're essentially asking if God is bound by the laws of gravity. Considering that planets seemingly "float" are you asking if God can create an object on earth he can't lift? Are you asking if God came to earth, if he could lift a heavy rock?

Assuming for a moment you lean towards the existence of God, you're asking if he who created gravity is less powerful than it's effects. In which I would ask, why is it important what God can do under the influence of gravity or not?

To quote C.S. Lewis here:

Can a mortal ask questions which God finds unanswerable? Quite easily, I should think. All nonsense questions are unanswerable.

It appears you've missed the point. It isn't about gravity per se, but about god's supposed powers and how they contradict each other. If god is capable of doing absolutely anything he wants---he's omnipotent---then he should be able to create a rock as heavy as he wishes, BUT can he create one too heavy for even him to lift? One would certainly think so because, after all, he is omnipotent. Yet on the other hand, if it's too heavy for even him to lift what does this say about his ability to do anything he wishes? Either the rock is too heavy and he can't lift it, in which case he's not omnipotent, or he can't create a rock too heavy to lift, in which case he's not omnipotent. Seems as god simply can't be omnipotent. But Christians never bother themselves with such particulars. It's far easier and less stressing to simply claim certain powers, and then go brunch. Doesn't pay to examine religious assertions too closely. There's kind of bliss in ignorance. HEY! that's it. Ignorance is bliss. Gotta remember that.

[Random Mind]

It appears you've missed the point. It isn't about gravity per se, but about god's supposed powers and how they contradict each other. If god is capable of doing absolutely anything he wants---he's omnipotent---then he should be able to create a rock as heavy as he wishes, BUT can he create one too heavy for even him to lift? One would certainly think so because, after all, he is omnipotent. Yet on the other hand, if it's too heavy for even him to lift what does this say about his ability to do anything he wishes? Either the rock is too heavy and he can't lift it, in which case he's not omnipotent, or he can't create a rock too heavy to lift, in which case he's not omnipotent. Seems as god simply can't be omnipotent. But Christians never bother themselves with such particulars. It's far easier and less stressing to simply claim certain powers, and then go brunch. Doesn't pay to examine religious assertions too closely. There's kind of bliss in ignorance. HEY! that's it. Ignorance is bliss. Gotta remember that.

You're assuming it would be logical for God to somehow show his divine prowess by displaying strength and power based on your terms. It also seems to suggest that we must measure God based on laws of this world. Lets say this world was 2 dimensional. Could we use our known laws to measure things in a 3D world? Assuming God is both real and true, what means of measurement can you provide that would accurately encompass who He is and what he is capable of? Could a 3D world explain in written terms what they are capable of to a 2D world?

It seems to be more a contradiction of terms than a scenario in which God has been proven as limited. I'm only suggesting that if God is real, we would have no way to explore the limit of his abilities. Being able to come up with a scenario you feel limits God is different than discovering God is limited.

I'm not arguing whether He is or isn't omnipotent here, only I don't feel it's possible to measure such a thing by our standards.

[Tiberius47]

We can figure out what would happen in a universe of as many dimensions you can propose.