Grammar of the Lord's Prayer?

[bjs]

This is just a grammar question, and I didn’t know what forum to put it in, but I could use some help.

Is the correct grammar for the Lord’s Prayer:

Our Father which art in heaven…

Or:

Our Father who art in heaven….

[sleepyhead]

Hello bjs,

If we change art toi is we have:

Our Father which is in heaven and Our Father who is in heaven.

Which could mean we have several fathers and we are clarifing our prayer by defining him as the one who lives in heaven. Who signifies we only have one father and he happens to live in heaven. I would therefore go with who.

[McCulloch]

Matthew 6:9

[row]New American Standard Bible (NASB)[col]Our Father who is in heaven,[row]New International Version (NIV)[col]Our Father in heaven,[row]King James Version (KJV)[col]Our Father which art in heaven, [row]English Standard Version (ESV)[col]Our Father in heaven[row]New King James Version (NKJV)[col]Our Father in heaven,[row]New Century Version (NCV)[col]Our Father in heaven,[row]Darby Translation (DARBY)[col]Our Father who art in the heavens, [row]GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)[col]Our Father in heaven,[row]Young's Literal Translation (YLT)[col]Our Father who [art] in the heavens[row]New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures[col]Our Father in the heavens[row]1894 Scrivener New Testament (TR1894)[col]πατε� ημων ο εν τοις ου�ανοις

Remember that the original was written in Greek, and that translation from ancient Greek into modern English can be somewhat troublesome. The consensus of translators seems to be that you should address the prayer to a Father who is in heaven (or the heavens).

Reading the context, you will find that repeating any prayer by rote memory is condemned. And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do. The irony is that this instruction is a mere two verses or one of the most often repeated rote memory prayers in the history of humanity.

[fewwillfindit]

The consensus of translators seems to be that you should address the prayer to a Father who is in heaven (or the heavens).

Reading the context, you will find that repeating any prayer by rote memory is condemned. And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do. The irony is that this instruction is a mere two verses or one of the most often repeated rote memory prayers in the history of humanity.

Many of us Christians see it as a template by which to construct our prayers, rather than a word for word recitation. From this perspective, it does not fall into the category of vain repetition. In my opinion, the Catholic rosary, hail mary, etc., more accurately fits this description

[fewwillfindit]

This is just a grammar question, and I didn’t know what forum to put it in, but I could use some help.

Is the correct grammar for the Lord’s Prayer:

Our Father which art in heaven…

Or:

Our Father who art in heaven….

As I understand it, the "which art" is ye olde English, i.e.; King James speak. The KJV also uses "which" when speaking about the Holy Spirit, whereas modern translations have adjusted it to the modern vernacular "who."

The Greek doesn't differentiate between who/which/whom, so it is left to the translators to determine it by context. The Greek here says, "pater ho ouranois," or "father the/which/who/what is in heaven", and since we are told that He is a personage, then it would be correct to use "who."

[Slopeshoulder]

Gowin' up in new yawk, we called it "Da Auwww Fawtha."
So we're bad people to ask abowt gramma!

[McCulloch]

Many of us Christians see it as a template by which to construct our prayers, rather than a word for word recitation. From this perspective, it does not fall into the category of vain repetition. In my opinion, the Catholic rosary, hail mary, etc., more accurately fits this description.

Clearly from the context, that is the intention of the prayer. Yet many Christians have been taught to recite it, at Sunday school and in my case, in Public elementary school. I'm told they don't recite the prayer anymore. The fact that many in our generation can recite that prayer from memory belies your claim that it is understood by many Christians not as a word for word recitation.

[fewwillfindit]

Many of us Christians see it as a template by which to construct our prayers, rather than a word for word recitation. From this perspective, it does not fall into the category of vain repetition. In my opinion, the Catholic rosary, hail mary, etc., more accurately fits this description.

Clearly from the context, that is the intention of the prayer. Yet many Christians have been taught to recite it, at Sunday school and in my case, in Public elementary school. I'm told they don't recite the prayer anymore. The fact that many in our generation can recite that prayer from memory belies your claim that it is understood by many Christians not as a word for word recitation.

I'm truly sorry McCulloch, if you think that, because of your own personal experience, that my claim is not true. My own personal experience is to the contrary. If you are attempting to quantify my qualifier of "many," I have no wish to argue about such minutia. Please take note that I didn't say "most." Now if I would have said "most," then that certainly would be a debatable statement. How is your life's experience any more valid than mine?

Anyhow, that said, I do agree with you that many do consider it to be a word for word recitation, just as many do not. There are certainly many Christians who cite it word for word.

[cnorman18]

In my experience, the Lord's Prayer is very rarely used in private prayer, but is more a matter of liturgical, or public, group prayer. If you're going to have a large group of people pray together using the same words, you need a prayer that can be recited by rote; and in that situation, it's less prayer than ritual anyway.

In 17th century English, "which" was often used to refer to people. In modern English, the preferred usage is "who." "Which" doesn't raise eyebrows or imply disrespect, it's just odd: "The mechanic which worked on my car." Huh? "Who" is just more usual. If you're using King James English, it's OK: "Which art in Heaven." If you're using modern English, it should be "Who is in Heaven."

The only thing really wrong would be mixing the usages. "Which is" and "Who art" are both weird. "Canst thou boogie down, homie?"

[fewwillfindit]

"Canst thou boogie down, homie?"

Rofl. I nominate this for quote of the week. And if we don't have a quote of the week section, then we should start one.