Is there more evidence for Santa Claus, or more for God?

atheist1 · Post by **atheist1** » Mon May 23, 2011 3:22 pm

I am struck by how similar the evidentiary cases are for Santa Claus and God. For example:

1. Both have believers and non-believers
2. Both receive requests for favors and answer some of them with the requested result
3. Both are written about extensively
4. Both are praised in song
5. While some claim to have seen them, they are generally unseen
6. Both have magical powers, and know if you have been bad or good
7. They both act in ways that can always also be attributed to natural actions
8. Both live in an unseen place

Are there others that I'm missing?

Is there any evidence for one that doesn't apply to the other?

sleepyhead · Post by **sleepyhead** » Tue May 24, 2011 11:30 am

atheist1 wrote:
Is there any evidence for one that doesn't apply to the other?

Hello athiest1,

Some people have observed that there is a law of Karma in effect. They might not see it in all cases but they believe it exists. This law of Karma (rightly or wrongly) can easily be considered to be proof that God exists.

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Tue May 24, 2011 11:57 am

From where I sit, Santa Claus is the perfect God-Lite, appropriate for children. As you point out, he has many of the attributes of God but without much of the theological baggage. No Trinity, Incarnation, Atonement, Personal sacrifice, eternal torment and so on. But it is a good kind of practice god, to develop the skills necessary for adult faith. If you doubt, learn to keep them to yourself, so as not to upset those who still believe. If you don't believe, pretend that you do and you will be rewarded. Rather than be rational, make up ever increasing complex justifications for how he can do what he is said to do. Compare the justifications of the Christmas Sleigh Ride with pseudo-scientific justifications of the Flood story. Be good and you'll be magically rewarded, but pretend that it is not for the reward, but "be good for goodness sake."

Damn! I sound cynical.

atheist1 · Post by **atheist1** » Tue May 24, 2011 12:46 pm

sleepyhead wrote:Some people have observed that there is a law of Karma in effect. They might not see it in all cases but they believe it exists. This law of Karma (rightly or wrongly) can easily be considered to be proof that God exists.

Thanks Sleepyhead. If Karma was shown to exist, in the sense that some entity ensures a payback of some kind, it would indicate the existence of something beyond the natural world as we understand it. However nothing of that kind has been demonstrated. People referring to the "law of Karma" in day to day life aren't saying anything different than "Be good or you'll get a lump of coal from Santa Claus." So I guess both the God and Santa myths both include Karma.

atheist1 · Post by **atheist1** » Tue May 24, 2011 12:51 pm

McCulloch wrote:From where I sit, Santa Claus is the perfect God-Lite, appropriate for children. As you point out, he has many of the attributes of God but without much of the theological baggage. No Trinity, Incarnation, Atonement, Personal sacrifice, eternal torment and so on. But it is a good kind of practice god, to develop the skills necessary for adult faith. If you doubt, learn to keep them to yourself, so as not to upset those who still believe. If you don't believe, pretend that you do and you will be rewarded. Rather than be rational, make up ever increasing complex justifications for how he can do what he is said to do. Compare the justifications of the Christmas Sleigh Ride with pseudo-scientific justifications of the Flood story. Be good and you'll be magically rewarded, but pretend that it is not for the reward, but "be good for goodness sake."

Damn! I sound cynical.

OK that's a good one to add to the list:

9. Both encourage you to "be good for goodness sake" but then promise you rewards for being good.

Lemonboo · Post by **Lemonboo** » Thu May 26, 2011 1:37 am

More evidence for God, unless by Santa Claus you mean St. Nicholas!

Far far more people have seen God, and have become close to him, and if you want to use song and wishes as evidence, then far more people sing song and offer prayers to God. Indeed, if we extend God to the divine in general, then all cultures in all nations have sought out God, as it is a natural part of who we are as humans. Hope this helps.

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Thu May 26, 2011 10:08 am

Lemonboo wrote: Far far more people have seen God,

I thought that God could not be seen. Many perhaps have claimed to be close to God or to know God, but objective verification of those claims seems to be quite elusive.

Songs are not evidence. No, Puff the Magic Dragon does not exist, in spite of the multitudes who sing about him.

Lemonboo · Post by **Lemonboo** » Thu May 26, 2011 1:06 pm

OP is the one who brought up songs in her evidence list, as well as writings, visions, believers, etc.

Anyway, no, God can certainly be seen and I'd recommend reading the writings of the many Saints who have seen him , these visions have been approved by the Church. (Though if you go outside the Church there are many more from around the world....) I'm not saying "OK believe in God now" and there's no way to force that kind of thing, but in terms of "MORE evidence"....God has it.

atheist1 · Post by **atheist1** » Thu May 26, 2011 2:14 pm

Lemonboo wrote:Anyway, no, God can certainly be seen and I'd recommend reading the writings of the many Saints who have seen him

If the evidence is that people have claimed to see him, then it is again a draw, since many people have claimed to see Santa Claus. And in both cases, the majority of people who believe in Santa or God will say that they have not seen him.

atheist1 · Post by **atheist1** » Thu May 26, 2011 2:20 pm

McCulloch wrote:Songs are not evidence.

I'm using songs as a type of evidence, just as belief by many is a type of evidence, but it's not the type of evidence that proves their existence. Given that there is no traceable physical evidence for either Santa Claus or God, the main "evidence" for either is that fact that many others claim to believe, and many sing songs about them, and some claim to have seen them.

Debating Christianity and Religion