How do Islam followers reconcile Christians they perceive as

[salvation2011]

Pretty much what the title says... If a Christian is someone who is in shirk (violation of commandments, right? and to worship Jesus or a death on a cross is in violation), but you know a Christian who is otherwise a good, nice person, how do you reconcile that? Can you reconcile that, or is that person, no matter how nice or good, essentially an infidel?

I am facing this right now as God has led me to read the bible (finally) and I am seeing that in order to be Christian one must believe in the fallacy of the trinity, worship a carved symbol (some made with a dead man on it), must drink blood of christ, believe that Jesus is God... all violations of the original 10 commandments. I had made friends at the church I was attending for 4 years, and many are nice people, but Im trying to reconcile what their fate is with thinking of "how can this be for this is a nice person?" Fooled into idolatry and sin... They were fooled not by Jesus himself, but seemingly by Peter and Saul/Paul decades after Jesus was on the cross.

Do you know Christians whom you like as people and yet, have conflict over them bc of their choice of worship? Thanks!

[Meow Mix]

There is a famous hadith reported by Abdullah(r.a), a disciple of Muhammad(pbuh):

Narrated 'Abdullah:
The Prophet said, "I know the person who will be the last to come out of the (Hell) Fire, and the last to enter Paradise. He will be a man who will come out of the (Hell) Fire crawling, and Allah will say to him, 'Go and enter Paradise.' He will go to it, but he will imagine that it had been filled, and then he will return and say, 'O Lord, I have found it full.' Allah will say, 'Go and enter Paradise, and you will have what equals the world and ten times as much (or, you will have as much as ten times the like of the world).' On that, the man will say, 'Do you mock at me (or laugh at me) though You are the King?" I saw Allah's Apostle (while saying that) smiling that his premolar teeth became visible. It is said that will be the lowest in degree amongst the people of Paradise.

- Sahih Bukhari (Book #76, Hadith #575)

Ultimately; the "Hell-Dwellers" will enter paradise. However if their sins are great (like hitler/osama/saddam), they will not even smell the scent of paradise.

That's interesting. I've always doubted that a truly just God could punish or allow to be punished fallible people who have committed only finite crimes (even if they are horrific in extent). I don't think there are any crimes worthy of infinite punishment.

Everything gets destroyed ultimately, however, that may be billions or trillions of years:

The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) said,: “Allah will roll up the heavens on the Day of Resurrection, then He will hold them in His Right Hand and will say, ‘I am the King. Where are the tyrants? Where are the arrogant ones?’�
[Sahih Muslim]

So, what happens then? The conscious personalities and memories of even the virtuous are destroyed? Do they start again?

Without a doubt muslims have the most black sheeps; although it's a shame that the 1.8 Billion muslims get demonised for a minority group.

I agree, and I don't associate just any Muslim with extremist Muslims. In fact, there are a lot of Muslims that live in my community with a very open harmony between other religions and with non-religions alike. When the Florida minister was going to burn copies of the Quran we held a counter-protest in our central park where Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Jews, atheists, pagans, and people from all walks of life took turns reading passages from the Quran -- most of the counter-protestors were Muslims and Christians (simply because of the population statistics in east Kansas), but even as an atheist I witnessed nothing but a strong sense of community and friendship between everyone. Too bad the world isn't always the same!

Saladin personifies the concept of virtuous war.

Also I hear he died with only a little money left to his name because he donated his wealth to charity.

Im sure if Jews/Muslims ate pork without knowing that it is pork; they would love it too. However that's not the point of the restriction; Islam teaches that animals can only be eaten if they are killed by cutting the jugular vein and leaving all other veins and organs intact; this is impossible with pigs.

I agree, alcohol can be ok if it's taken in minimal doses; but it's better to avoid a harmful substance all-together.

These are good points. In any case I wasn't judging Islam for disallowing these things; only stating that they're reasons I probably wouldn't ever convert (on top of doubting the existence of gods and prophets in general) despite liking many tenets of Islam more than the other Abrahamic religions.

Here are a few misconceptions answered

If your questions are not answered there, i would be more than happy to answer them here. If your questions are about LGBT, i would be glad to clarify a few points.

Thank you for the link!

My questions aren't inherently about LGBT issues, though those are included with my questions about Sharia and human rights. From a few conversations with Muslims about them in the past it seems to depend on who I ask. My main concerns are whether Islam is inherently political as well as religious (or, if it's not, why it's interpreted that way by some), whether Sharia applies to non-Muslims (and if not, such questions as "so could non-Muslims sell alcohol or drink alcohol on a patio?"), and what Islam has to say about LGBT (such as do a lot of Muslims think it's a "choice" as many Christians do?).

[Murad]

That's interesting. I've always doubted that a truly just God could punish or allow to be punished fallible people who have committed only finite crimes (even if they are horrific in extent). I don't think there are any crimes worthy of infinite punishment.

Although i never impose my philosophical or epistemological beliefs on God, i do agree that a just God will not punish someone infinitely, and many Islamic Scholars share this opinion.

Everything gets destroyed ultimately, however, that may be billions or trillions of years:

The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) said,: “Allah will roll up the heavens on the Day of Resurrection, then He will hold them in His Right Hand and will say, ‘I am the King. Where are the tyrants? Where are the arrogant ones?’�
[Sahih Muslim]

So, what happens then? The conscious personalities and memories of even the virtuous are destroyed? Do they start again?

No one except God knows the ultimate purpose for mankind. The Quran teaches that there are Jinns(Demons) who can see us & hear us, even interact with us, i presume these demons live in a different dimension as we cannot interact with them (Maybe in the future as Hawkins says we might interact with Gravitational Pulls), and even they will face the inevitable fate, that is, of non-existence. That is the key idea in Islamic Theology, nothing except God is infinite, thus everything else must come to an end. Anything more than that, we do not know.

Saladin personifies the concept of virtuous war.

Also I hear he died with only a little money left to his name because he donated his wealth to charity.

That is nothing compared to Muhammad(pbuh); when he had all of Arabia under his finger, he slept on a bed made of hay which left marks on his body:

'Narrated Umar(r.a):

'The Messenger of Allah was sleeping on a mat, the marks of the mat were left on his blessed side. I said, 'O Messenger of Allah, only if you would sleep on something better than this'. The Prophet replied, 'What have I to gain in this world, this world is like as if a traveller is travelling in the sun and he sits under a tree and gets up and goes.'''

That is the muslim mentality; everything in this world is an illusion; it lasts only for a second; the real goal is in the hereafter.

Im sure if Jews/Muslims ate pork without knowing that it is pork; they would love it too. However that's not the point of the restriction; Islam teaches that animals can only be eaten if they are killed by cutting the jugular vein and leaving all other veins and organs intact; this is impossible with pigs.

I agree, alcohol can be ok if it's taken in minimal doses; but it's better to avoid a harmful substance all-together.

These are good points. In any case I wasn't judging Islam for disallowing these things; only stating that they're reasons I probably wouldn't ever convert (on top of doubting the existence of gods and prophets in general) despite liking many tenets of Islam more than the other Abrahamic religions.

You've probably heard the phrase "Mind over Matter" before, this is essential in Islam, and it is known as the "Greater Jihad". Resisting temptation & fighting against your own desire leads to spiritual virtue, which is the goal of every muslim.

Here are a few misconceptions answered

If your questions are not answered there, i would be more than happy to answer them here. If your questions are about LGBT, i would be glad to clarify a few points.

Thank you for the link!

My questions aren't inherently about LGBT issues, though those are included with my questions about Sharia and human rights. From a few conversations with Muslims about them in the past it seems to depend on who I ask. My main concerns are whether Islam is inherently political as well as religious (or, if it's not, why it's interpreted that way by some),

Islam itself is not political, but it can be made political if a nation wants to live in accordance to absolute Islamic Regulations.

whether Sharia applies to non-Muslims (and if not, such questions as "so could non-Muslims sell alcohol or drink alcohol on a patio?"),

It depends on the makeup of the constitution, although i presume it does apply, but very differently. A non-muslim living in an Islamic State has to pay an extra tax called "Jizya", and there are numerous reasons for this:
1) The muslims are obliged to fight for the non-muslims in war; whereas the non-muslims are not obliged to join the army or fight.
2) Muslims pay obligatory charity, thus it's seen ethical that non-muslims also make some sort of contribution (the money from Jizya is also given to charity).

etc... more info found here

Thus i would say it does apply, but not fully; and it depends on numerous other factors like the makeup of the constitution & interpretation etc... & no, selling of harmful substances is illegal in an Islamic Nation.

and what Islam has to say about LGBT (such as do a lot of Muslims think it's a "choice" as many Christians do?).

Homosexuality/Lesbianism is not a sin; howoever same gender sex is a sin. There are Islamic Schools of Thought who hold conflicting beliefs, some believing that there is no punishment for gay sexual activity while some believe that capital punishment is applicable. So as you can already note, this is a very ambiguous topic with many possible interpretations.

This is a very short clip of Sheikh Hamza explaining Homosexuality in Islam: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm_ehpxYs4g

[Meow Mix]

Homosexuality/Lesbianism is not a sin; howoever same gender sex is a sin. There are Islamic Schools of Thought who hold conflicting beliefs, some believing that there is no punishment for gay sexual activity while some believe that capital punishment is applicable. So as you can already note, this is a very ambiguous topic with many possible interpretations.

This is a very short clip of Sheikh Hamza explaining Homosexuality in Islam: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm_ehpxYs4g

Thank you for the information. At this point, though, what I perceive to be the shortcomings of Islam become apparent. I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions, though!

[Murad]

Homosexuality/Lesbianism is not a sin; howoever same gender sex is a sin. There are Islamic Schools of Thought who hold conflicting beliefs, some believing that there is no punishment for gay sexual activity while some believe that capital punishment is applicable. So as you can already note, this is a very ambiguous topic with many possible interpretations.

This is a very short clip of Sheikh Hamza explaining Homosexuality in Islam: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm_ehpxYs4g

Thank you for the information. At this point, though, what I perceive to be the shortcomings of Islam become apparent. I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions, though!

I assume the "shortcomings" are purely subjective, if you have any other questions feel free to PM me. I'm going to be off for 2-3 days.

Take care.

[Meow Mix]

I assume the "shortcomings" are purely subjective, if you have any other questions feel free to PM me. I'm going to be off for 2-3 days.

Take care.

Yes, they're subjective -- I tried to qualify by saying "what I perceive to be the shortcomings of Islam."

I just doubt that a loving deity would be so offended over who we love and who we bed, especially if we have very little control over whom we're attracted to -- so long as parties involved are of age and consensual.

Sure, it's a subjective notion; but I feel as though if a god existed He would explain it to me such that I could understand why He doesn't want me to be intimate with the person that completes me in life.

[East of Eden]

If Hell isn't eternal, do those punished in Hell eventually see Paradise if they see the error of their ways and genuinely atone?

If Heaven isn't eternal, what happens after a long time to those who are in it?



Thank you for your responses. Out of all the Abrahamic faiths -- at least, of what I know about them, which overall isn't much in terms of the specific ideologies and histories -- I think I like Islam the best. I mean no disrespect when I say that it has some of the worst followers (in the modern age -- seems it was reversed in the Islamic Golden Age while Christians were slaughtering everyone including one another) but it also has some of the best ones. (Saladin comes to mind)

I'd be okay with wearing hijab as long as no one forced me, in fact I like the aesthetics of it on all the Muslims that live around here (it's a college town and there's a lot).

I guess what really keeps me from it is that I doubt a god exists and therefore also doubt anyone was really a prophet. I disagree with some of the rules (I love pork, and think alcohol is OK when done safely), I'd have a really hard time waking up and attending to prayers all the time, and I doubt that a god would really care that much about prayer.

Aside from my personal doubts, though, I think of the Abrahamic faiths Islam gets the most "right." I still think it gets a lot wrong, though. Too much wrong for me to consider conversion. But less so than the others.

Meow, I'm surprised to hear you say that considering how Islam treats women. Sharia Law for all practical purposes is gender apartheid.