Sex and the Bible

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Angel

Sex and the Bible

Post #1

Post by Angel »

What is sex?

Here's a view from one website (its not a scholarly based website from what I can tell but was still helpful) regarding what sex is according to the Bible:
For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. (Genesis 2:24, The Scriptures)

The Hebrew phrase "echad basar" means "one flesh" or "one body" and literally describes the physical act of the penis penetrating into the body of another person. More specifically, it refers to a man and a woman joining their bodies together in penile-vaginal sexual intercourse. For example, a husband and wife join together at night and become "one flesh" or "one body". They become "one flesh" during the act of sexual intercourse. What is important to understand is that being "one flesh" with someone is not a state of existence; it is a state of action.

Most Believers already understand that a man and a woman become "one flesh" through sexual intercourse. What many do not understand is that a man and a man may technically become "one flesh" as well, although this is an abomination and is forbidden throughout Scripture. However, a woman and a woman CANNOT become "one flesh", simply because they lack the physical equipment necessary for that possibility. They might be sexually intimate, but they can never become “one flesh� as defined in Scripture. In order for this “echad basar� act to occur, a penetrating male must be present, which is why it is not possible for women to ever be one flesh with each other. Sexual penetration is the act of joining together as one flesh.
Source: http://www.righteouswarriors.com/contro ... cle11.html
The section entitled, One Flesh.

So I'll ask the debate questions..

1. Acording to the Bible, what is sex? Is the article I quoted from correct and therefore according to the writers of the Bible, oral sex and other non-intercourse sex acts (sex as we call it today) not considered sex?

2. Do the explanations in the quoted article accurately explain why the Bible is silent on the issue of same-sex acts between women unlike the condemnation of same-sex acts between men?

User avatar
Goat
Site Supporter
Posts: 24999
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:09 pm
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 207 times

Post #11

Post by Goat »

Autodidact wrote:The Bible is silent about lesbianism because it was written by, for and about men. Since lesbianism, by definition, does not include men, it is also not included in the Bible. As a side-benefit, it is also not prohibited anywhere in the Bible.
That is one theory. The other theory is that back then, men can have multiple wives, and any 'women on women' action is not discussed, because it eliminates possibilities of what a man does with his wives.

On the other hand, I don't see how the attitudes of people living 3000 years ago have any authority over what I believe and act today.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

User avatar
Autodidact
Prodigy
Posts: 3014
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:18 pm

Post #12

Post by Autodidact »

Slopeshoulder wrote:The passage referenced in the OP is too literal about bodies. The bible in referring to body is referring to full self, as experienced and presented in lived life. Two existent beings, two selves, two lives, two centers of action, longing, hope, suffering, etc become as one, both practically and spiritually/psychologically. I'm sure a biblical theologian could elaborate.

Genitalia are secondary and not really the point.
And you know this how?

User avatar
Autodidact
Prodigy
Posts: 3014
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:18 pm

Post #13

Post by Autodidact »

Goat wrote:
Autodidact wrote:The Bible is silent about lesbianism because it was written by, for and about men. Since lesbianism, by definition, does not include men, it is also not included in the Bible. As a side-benefit, it is also not prohibited anywhere in the Bible.
That is one theory. The other theory is that back then, men can have multiple wives, and any 'women on women' action is not discussed, because it eliminates possibilities of what a man does with his wives.

On the other hand, I don't see how the attitudes of people living 3000 years ago have any authority over what I believe and act today.
I don't follow you. I mean yes, polygamy is permitted, but how does what two women do eliminate possibilities of what a man does with his wives?

User avatar
Goat
Site Supporter
Posts: 24999
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:09 pm
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 207 times

Post #14

Post by Goat »

Autodidact wrote:
Goat wrote:
Autodidact wrote:The Bible is silent about lesbianism because it was written by, for and about men. Since lesbianism, by definition, does not include men, it is also not included in the Bible. As a side-benefit, it is also not prohibited anywhere in the Bible.
That is one theory. The other theory is that back then, men can have multiple wives, and any 'women on women' action is not discussed, because it eliminates possibilities of what a man does with his wives.

On the other hand, I don't see how the attitudes of people living 3000 years ago have any authority over what I believe and act today.
I don't follow you. I mean yes, polygamy is permitted, but how does what two women do eliminate possibilities of what a man does with his wives?
If a man was having activity with more than one wife at a time, he might want to watch. Some men are like that.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

Angel

Post #15

Post by Angel »

Slopeshoulder wrote:The passage referenced in the OP is too literal about bodies. The bible in referring to body is referring to full self, as experienced and presented in lived life. Two existent beings, two selves, two lives, two centers of action, longing, hope, suffering, etc become as one, both practically and spiritually/psychologically. I'm sure a biblical theologian could elaborate.

Genitalia are secondary and not really the point.
I don't agree with your explanation completely because of passages like 1 Corinthians 6:16-17. Those passages show that you can also become one flesh with a prostitute and we know what takes place with a prostitute and it's also OUTSIDE of marriage. So there is no marriage, love, longing for, suffering, and those other qualities you bring up involved in this context and probably at all. If there's any spiritual connection or other special qualities between a husband and wife, it's indicated by other passages and not the two becoming one reference.

1 Corinthians 6:16-17
16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.� 17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

User avatar
Slopeshoulder
Banned
Banned
Posts: 3367
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:46 pm
Location: San Francisco

Post #16

Post by Slopeshoulder »

Autodidact wrote:
Slopeshoulder wrote:The passage referenced in the OP is too literal about bodies. The bible in referring to body is referring to full self, as experienced and presented in lived life. Two existent beings, two selves, two lives, two centers of action, longing, hope, suffering, etc become as one, both practically and spiritually/psychologically. I'm sure a biblical theologian could elaborate.

Genitalia are secondary and not really the point.
And you know this how?
I recall it from classes in divinity school at yale in biblical exegesis and sexual ethics. But it was a while ago ('85-'87).

Shermana
Prodigy
Posts: 3762
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:19 pm
Location: City of the "Angels"
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Sex and the Bible

Post #17

Post by Shermana »

Goat wrote:
Angel wrote:What is sex?

Here's a view from one website (its not a scholarly based website from what I can tell but was still helpful) regarding what sex is according to the Bible:
For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. (Genesis 2:24, The Scriptures)

The Hebrew phrase "echad basar" means "one flesh" or "one body" and literally describes the physical act of the penis penetrating into the body of another person. More specifically, it refers to a man and a woman joining their bodies together in penile-vaginal sexual intercourse. For example, a husband and wife join together at night and become "one flesh" or "one body". They become "one flesh" during the act of sexual intercourse. What is important to understand is that being "one flesh" with someone is not a state of existence; it is a state of action.

Most Believers already understand that a man and a woman become "one flesh" through sexual intercourse. What many do not understand is that a man and a man may technically become "one flesh" as well, although this is an abomination and is forbidden throughout Scripture. However, a woman and a woman CANNOT become "one flesh", simply because they lack the physical equipment necessary for that possibility. They might be sexually intimate, but they can never become “one flesh� as defined in Scripture. In order for this “echad basar� act to occur, a penetrating male must be present, which is why it is not possible for women to ever be one flesh with each other. Sexual penetration is the act of joining together as one flesh.
Source: http://www.righteouswarriors.com/contro ... cle11.html
The section entitled, One Flesh.

So I'll ask the debate questions..

1. Acording to the Bible, what is sex? Is the article I quoted from correct and therefore according to the writers of the Bible, oral sex and other non-intercourse sex acts (sex as we call it today) not considered sex?

2. Do the explanations in the quoted article accurately explain why the Bible is silent on the issue of same-sex acts between women unlike the condemnation of same-sex acts between men?

Well, the only 'Jewish' sources that try to promote that I see are 'messianic jewish' sites. They tend to have southern baptist theology.

The one discussion I saw on a Jewish site implied that it was a 'spiritual' melding, as well as a physical one. While sex is implied it also was implying family. So, while sex is included, it is not exclusive.
Indeed, most "Messianic Jewish" theologies are puppets of Evangelical funding. The Torah is clearly silent on the issue, and Romans 1:26 is about the "Greek practice". (Otherwise, one will have to say that "unnatural use" does not involve the "Greek style" with women).

When a man unites with a woman, he basically owns her, she becomes a part of him, she is his and becomes one with him. Regardless of what any feminist says. Two women cannot possibly "unite" in the same way, and to say that it's the same spiritually shows a total disregard for the actual physical biology going on. Neither is it possible for a woman to truly "Whore" herself to another women the same way as to a man, even if the woman has satisfaction out of it, it's nothing close. A woman who gets with 100 lesbian partners but no man is still more virgin than a woman who has been with one man.
Last edited by Shermana on Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Slopeshoulder
Banned
Banned
Posts: 3367
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:46 pm
Location: San Francisco

Post #18

Post by Slopeshoulder »

Angel wrote:
Slopeshoulder wrote:The passage referenced in the OP is too literal about bodies. The bible in referring to body is referring to full self, as experienced and presented in lived life. Two existent beings, two selves, two lives, two centers of action, longing, hope, suffering, etc become as one, both practically and spiritually/psychologically. I'm sure a biblical theologian could elaborate.

Genitalia are secondary and not really the point.
I don't agree with your explanation completely because of passages like 1 Corinthians 6:16-17. Those passages show that you can also become one flesh with a prostitute and we know what takes place with a prostitute and it's also OUTSIDE of marriage. So there is no marriage, love, longing for, suffering, and those other qualities you bring up involved in this context and probably at all. If there's any spiritual connection or other special qualities between a husband and wife, it's indicated by other passages and not the two becoming one reference.

1 Corinthians 6:16-17
16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.� 17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.
It seems to me:
prostitute: flesh only
lord: spirit only
loved one: both

But overall, this verse is just paul using a rather awkward example. I wouldn't treat it as rulebook or some perfect word of god. My whole approach is different and disregards this option.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21142
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 794 times
Been thanked: 1129 times
Contact:

Re: Sex and the Bible

Post #19

Post by JehovahsWitness »

For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. (Genesis 2:24, The Scriptures)

The Hebrew phrase "echad basar" means "one flesh" or "one body" and literally describes the physical act of the penis penetrating into the body of another person. More specifically, it refers to a man and a woman joining their bodies together in penile-vaginal sexual intercourse. For example, a husband and wife join together at night and become "one flesh" or "one body". They become "one flesh" during the act of sexual intercourse. What is important to understand is that being "one flesh" with someone is not a state of existence; it is a state of action.

Most Believers already understand that a man and a woman become "one flesh" through sexual intercourse.

....
Source: http://www.righteouswarriors.com/contro ... cle11.html
The section entitled, One Flesh.

# QUESTION Does the expression "one flesh" as used in Genesis 2:24 refer to penile-vaginal sexual intercourse?

No; while the word (ba·sar) IS used in Leviticus 15:23 with reference to the man's genital organ, the word is used much more frequently in a general sense to refer to the soft substance of a physical body, whether of man, beast, bird, or fish" or parts thereof (see ; Le 17:11-14; De 28:53-57; 2Ki 6:28-; Le 17:15,16; De 14:21). Notice the first occurence of the word in scripture at Genesis 2: 21, where it refers, not to Adams genitals, but to the flesh surrounding his ribcage on his chest.

KINSHIP

The hebrew word for "flesh" "basar" is also often used to simply refer to a distinct species or "kind" of physical creature (see Ge 6:17; Ge 9:3, 4; Ex 22:31) as well as metaphorically in scripture to refer to close kinship. For example between Jacob and his father-in-law Laben "Then Laban said to him, "You are my own flesh and blood." [...]" - Genesis 29:14 NIV (compare Gen 3:23, 37:27; 2Sa 5:1 Ge 2:23).


SEX OR MARRIAGE?

It also should be noted that the Hebrew did have a word which covered sexual intercourse, (yada) and this word is lacking in the sequence of events in Genesis 2: 19-24). Indeed the narrative links the idea of "one flesh", not with intercourse, as is the case of the conception of Cain (see Ge 4: 1), but with the presenting of Eve to Adam. In this passage we see, #1) Eve created, #2) God bringing her to Adam #3) Adam declaration in poetry that she is 'flesh of his flesh' and #4) the narrative conclusion that male-female unions that follow this model are permanent arrangements commenting that "a man must STICK to his wife (or woman) and they must become 'one flesh'.

In short, rather than implying that Adam had sex with his wife and this act caused them to became "one flesh", the passage indicates it was the presentation of Eve sight of God that forged the union.

The context of Jesus quotation of the above Genesis account at Mat 19: 5, 6 sheds further light on how this expression should be understood. Jesus stated that adultery (which usually involves penile-vaginal penetration) violated or breaks the divine mandate to become "one flesh". If this union can be broken or disolved by an subsequent act it is clearly a state of continued existence. Further one might ask, if the physical penetration of a penis into a vigina renders the individuals "one flesh" what is to be made of the divine law that rapists be punished or that even concentual sexual intercourse be viewed as unlawful under certain circumstances (possibly punishable by death)? Clearly Jesus is refering to more therefore than just a physical copulation but a state of "ownership" or unity of kinship, that was divinely binding and broken by only by legal declaration.

CONCLUSION While it may be poetically satisfying to see the obvious paralles between the physical act of sexual intercourse and the biblical expression, it is somewhat of a wild extrapolation of the scriptural use of the words to suggest that "echad baser" is refering specifically to copulation, especially as other words and expressions (such as the hebrew word "yada" - see Genesis 4:1) cover the sexual act. It is much more contextually justifiable to conclude that "echad baser" refers to the CONTINUED existence of a man and a woman in as a divinely contracted (permanent) family UNIT.





JEHOVAH'S WITNESS





RELATED POSTS
Did the Apostle Paul prohibit marriage?
viewtopic.php?p=1077129#p1077129

Does the bible condemn interacial marriage?
viewtopic.php?p=1027415#p1027415

What is the biblical view of POLYGAMY?
viewtopic.php?p=1026621#p1026621

ONE FLESH Does sexual intercourse mark the start of a marriage?
viewtopic.php?p=402971#p402971

Is the fact that some children do well raised alternatively reason to degrade the value of biblical MARRIAGE?
viewtopic.php?p=1016001#p1016001

What was the marital status of Hebrew concubines?
viewtopic.php?p=404640#p404640

Is the bible practical for modern living?
viewtopic.php?p=1015833#p1015833

Do Jehovahs Witnesses break up marriages?
viewtopic.php?p=1032157#p1032157

What is the biblical standard for remarriage after a separation?
viewtopic.php?p=1059915#p1059915

Should children be raised by both parents?
viewtopic.php?p=1016001#p1016001
To learn more please go to other posts related to...

SEX , MARRIAGE and ... DIVORCE
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Mon May 09, 2022 2:15 am, edited 10 times in total.

User avatar
Autodidact
Prodigy
Posts: 3014
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:18 pm

Post #20

Post by Autodidact »

Slopeshoulder wrote:
Autodidact wrote:
Slopeshoulder wrote:The passage referenced in the OP is too literal about bodies. The bible in referring to body is referring to full self, as experienced and presented in lived life. Two existent beings, two selves, two lives, two centers of action, longing, hope, suffering, etc become as one, both practically and spiritually/psychologically. I'm sure a biblical theologian could elaborate.

Genitalia are secondary and not really the point.
And you know this how?
I recall it from classes in divinity school at yale in biblical exegesis and sexual ethics. But it was a while ago ('85-'87).
So the Bible means what Yale Divinity school says it means?

Post Reply