Grey areas of Christianity

[Veritas4God]

Every Christian has gray areas, the things we feel are probably wrong but that aren't specified in the Bible. These areas can be far ranging in different parts of life. As an unmarried Christian, I tend to struggle with sexual gray areas; the ones that make you feel guilty, but you don't really know why you should be feeling that way. I need help from some of my brothers and sisters on this topic. How do we judge whether such areas are outright wrong, or whether they're simply neutral or even harmless? What constitutes impurity or unfaithfulness to God?

Please let me know of any thoughts or mutual questions any of you might have on this topic. Thanks to all my Christian family on here!

[otseng]

Even as a married Christian, I struggle with sexual temptations. Though it's better now since I'm a more mature Christian (actually probably more due to the fact that my hormone production is not what it used to be). I've recognized that this is my biggest area of weakness. I'm not even remotely tempted by drugs or alcohol. Power is not something I really want either. And I don't have enough money to be tempted much by it. But the area of sexual lust is another matter.

I think this area is a common problem for many men, especially Christian men. Specifically the area of porn. It's readily accessible, free, and can be kept hidden. If any other sin had these attributes, I'm sure it would also hold a lot of people captive.

How can sexual temptations be dealt with? I think for one thing the attitude cannot be to fight it. That's not to say to give in to it. But to flee from it. Don't feed the carnal nature with anything that promotes temptations. This can mean unsubscribing to cable and certain magazines and putting an internet filter on. Having someone else hold you accountable is also a powerful way to deal with it.

[Slopeshoulder]

I have very liberal views sexually, but my lifestyle choices are very conservative. I'm desirous of two types of women; I'm married to one type and surrounded by the other. For me, I think of fidelity as an issue of home, identity, love, promise, hassle, self-story, etc. I count my blessings and either avert my eyes, or more often, stare it down until it is powerless. Being experienced and middle aged helps. Mostly, I just file it in the "who cares" file. And I figure most woman don't hold a candle to my wife or don't really interest me sexually. For the ocassional one who does, I just say "ah memories" and live the life I am lucky to have now.

But I do not look tot the bible for rules about anything, ever. Instead I look to whatever wisdom is contained thematically in the entire tradition, and align with that. Grey area? I trust my conscience, and forgive myself. I'm not too uptight about it. I just love my wife. If I didn't have her, I'd be single and active, and emphasize honesty, love, consent, health, connection, and enjoyment, as I always have.

[Veritas4God]

Otseng said

as a married Christian, I struggle with sexual temptations. Though it's better now since I'm a more mature Christian (actually probably more due to the fact that my hormone production is not what it used to be). I've recognized that this is my biggest area of weakness. I'm not even remotely tempted by drugs or alcohol. Power is not something I really want either. And I don't have enough money to be tempted much by it. But the area of sexual lust is another matter.

So does temptation in this area get easier at all after you get married? That's been my hope; once I get married, most of these things will just go away and I'll be satisfied with my spouse.

Otseng said

How can sexual temptations be dealt with? I think for one thing the attitude cannot be to fight it. That's not to say to give in to it. But to flee from it. Don't feed the carnal nature with anything that promotes temptations. This can mean unsubscribing to cable and certain magazines and putting an internet filter on. Having someone else hold you accountable is also a powerful way to deal with it.

I've noticed the same thing. Every time I try to stand up to temptation, it pushes me over and stomps on me. The times I've actually run (literally, in a few cases) away from temptation, it seems to lose a lot of its pull.
There are some things I've been doing that, while not specified as wrong in the Bible, have definitely made me weaker in standing up to things I know are wrong. Now I'm just trying to figure out how to let go of those debatable things. They're really attractive to me, so it's been very difficult.

Slopeshoulder said

But I do not look tot the bible for rules about anything, ever. Instead I look to whatever wisdom is contained thematically in the entire tradition, and align with that. Grey area? I trust my conscience, and forgive myself. I'm not too uptight about it. I just love my wife. If I didn't have her, I'd be single and active, and emphasize honesty, love, consent, health, connection, and enjoyment, as I always have.

What entire tradition are you referring to, exactly? I've tried to trust my conscience, but oftentimes with things like this, it goes numb. I think I can forgive myself, but it gets hard when I think of the letdown I'm giving to all the people who I'm supposed to be an example to.
What do you mean by emphasizing consent, connection, and enjoyment?

[Slopeshoulder]

Slopeshoulder said

But I do not look to the bible for rules about anything, ever. Instead I look to whatever wisdom is contained thematically in the entire tradition, and align with that. Grey area? I trust my conscience, and forgive myself. I'm not too uptight about it. I just love my wife. If I didn't have her, I'd be single and active, and emphasize honesty, love, consent, health, connection, and enjoyment, as I always have.

What entire tradition are you referring to, exactly?

Sorry, I meant the Judeo-Christian tradition. Everything from the Good Book to the book by my former seminary professor: Just Love by Margeret Farley.
I'd also look to common themes in world religion and in secular learning (psychology, biology, ethics, gender studies).
And all of it reappropriated and reframed for today (longer lives, later marriages, more choice and travel, more knowledge, more technology, empowered and enfranchised woman, etc etc) I look at an ancient text and ask, what might it teach us today. What do others have to say about this? No more, no less.

I've tried to trust my conscience, but oftentimes with things like this, it goes numb.

I have to wonder if you really endorse and believe in the rules you seem to place authority in, if they really ring true to you. If they don't make sense to you, drop them. Why be tyrannized? I've been sexually active since I was 15 with no regrets. But at the same time, when it comes to sex I always try (and succeed) to uphold the key thematic ideas that the tradition(s) have taught me: justice, fairness, restraint, honesty, consent, sobriety, wellness, connection, flourishing. And in the past if I got a favor from a very new friend after a gig, who cares? I'd never ask, and I'd say no if she was drunk or acting out. I slept with women I met an hour before but only once, or 10 years before but only once, and always treated them with respect. I seemed to get the benefits of the bad boy and nice guy simultaneously. But I've been monogamous almost always.

I think I can forgive myself, but it gets hard when I think of the letdown I'm giving to all the people who I'm supposed to be an example to.

Again, do you buy into their rules? Or are you tyrannized by them? For example, I LIKE mongamy. I do it because it's easy and preferred. I buy into it.

What do you mean by emphasizing consent, connection, and enjoyment?

Also add justice, fairness, honesty, restraint, sobriety, etc.
I mean that these are values and themes that I have inherited from the tradition that inform my conscience (as opposed to applying alleged "rules" that allegedly come from a literalistic reading of the bible) that I apply in all moral decision making, especially sexual.
As I see it, religion doesn't want us to deny ourselves, it wants us to get our heads around what is really best for us, and sometimes that means voluntarily (and eventually easily) letting some stuff go for better stuff.

[otseng]

So does temptation in this area get easier at all after you get married? That's been my hope; once I get married, most of these things will just go away and I'll be satisfied with my spouse.

Yes, it does get a bit easier, but it does not go away. Do not place your hopes on marriage to solve any problems. You'll have to learn to deal with issues before you get married.

[Veritas4God]

A friend told me about this really great website called pornfree.com. The views are very well supported by backup verses. If anyone checks it out, though, be sure to type in pornfree christian. Otherwise you'll come up with a very disgusting website or list of websites, as I did the first time I tried to find it. Also, lately I've found that listening to encouraging Christian music when I'm tempted has helped a lot. Does anyone else have any practical ways to flee temptation?

[Slopeshoulder]

A friend told me about this really great website called pornfree.com. The views are very well supported by backup verses. If anyone checks it out, though, be sure to type in pornfree christian. Otherwise you'll come up with a very disgusting website or list of websites, as I did the first time I tried to find it. Also, lately I've found that listening to encouraging Christian music when I'm tempted has helped a lot. Does anyone else have any practical ways to flee temptation?

YES! I find the best way to avoid temptations to things that we would consider harmful, yet enjoyable, is this:
- first, satisfy something you desire strongly, and satisfy it deeply. laughter, sports, (approved) sex, love, arts.
- second, work to develop maturity, focus, perspective and quell the fires of harmful attachment and desire (in all things). This happens with either a spiritual or psychological journey, or both.

I enjoy every aspect of my wonderful and beautiful wife, play a lot of music, contemplate, and laugh. I also work and think. And hang with all y'all.
All that gives me the perspective to refrain from burying myself in deep velvety cleavage just because it's all around me he in norcal. No big deal. I've conquered cleavage. Yay, me. Took many years. Such a relief.

I don't recommend this, but on the the clockwork orange and everything-gets-boring theories, you could watch porn 14 hours a day and blow your savings on hookers. After 6 months you'd be cured and not care at all. Gluttony does that.

But Freud was right when he said the a repressed desire will come out in other unhealthy ways. Better to marry than burn right? Allow yourself a balance of satisfaction in life and then be content and count your blessings. I guess that's my point. Ascetism and gluttony are both dead ends.

In the end human beings only stop wanting things when they no longer want them. You don't overcome desire, you turn it off. I'm type 2 diabetic, I used to love sweets, but now I see them as fatal poison. Result: no desire.

[Veritas4God]

YES! I find the best way to avoid temptations to things that we would consider harmful, yet enjoyable, is this:
- first, satisfy something you desire strongly, and satisfy it deeply. laughter, sports, (approved) sex, love, arts.
- second, work to develop maturity, focus, perspective and quell the fires of harmful attachment and desire (in all things). This happens with either a spiritual or psychological journey, or both.

Totally. Sometimes I just need to DO something to get my mind off what's tempting me.

I enjoy every aspect of my wonderful and beautiful wife, play a lot of music, contemplate, and laugh. I also work and think. And hang with all y'all.
All that gives me the perspective to refrain from burying myself in deep velvety cleavage just because it's all around me he in norcal. No big deal. I've conquered cleavage. Yay, me. Took many years. Such a relief.

You made me laugh with your forthrightness, here!! Thank you for it. I need to laugh.

I don't recommend this, but on the the clockwork orange and everything-gets-boring theories, you could watch porn 14 hours a day and blow your savings on hookers. After 6 months you'd be cured and not care at all. Gluttony does that.

I think you'd only be cured for so long, though. After you got over the initial loss of interest, your mind would begin to kick in with the same old again.

But Freud was right when he said the a repressed desire will come out in other unhealthy ways. Better to marry than burn right? Allow yourself a balance of satisfaction in life and then be content and count your blessings. I guess that's my point. Ascetism and gluttony are both dead ends.

yes, and that's why I don't think I can remain single forever. It would be more distracting for me to remain single and have to fight this till I die, then have someone to help me deal with it.

In the end human beings only stop wanting things when they no longer want them. You don't overcome desire, you turn it off. I'm type 2 diabetic, I used to love sweets, but now I see them as fatal poison. Result: no desire.

Just because I want something doesn't make it all right to indulge in it, though. I'm working to turn off my desire, but it doesn't seem very simple. I know what you mean with the diabetes, though. I'm lactose intolerant, so I've come to view things like ice cream that I craved before with more of a neutral I-can-have-it-or-not-and-it-won't-matter type of attitude.[/strike]

[WinePusher]

I'm saying that there is no causal relationship between higher income taxes on incomes over $1 million and unemployment. And I have already laid out my argument for that.

Jobs can be created without a pile of money, WP, it's done every day. You can borrow money to start a business. You can work out of your home for next to nothing. People rent trucks by the day to use for making money. Or they push lawnmowers. Telephones, computers - plenty of opportunities are within reach of people with limited means. Wozniak and Jobs started Apple in a garage. All they need is demand for their labors.

And as for your assumptions, businesses don't increase their income simply by hiring more workers, no matter how much of an "asset" they might be. There has to be demand for their product, period.

If that's not good enough, here's some statistical proof: States with highest levels of unemployment depend heavily on Income Taxes:

California............11.2% Unemployment
Oregon..............12.1% Unemployment
North Carolina.....10.8% Unemployment

The income tax of California makes up 47.5% of its total tax revenue
The income tax of Oregon makes up 68.5% of its total tax revenue
The income tax of North Carolina makes up 48.3% of its total tax revenue

What conclusion do you draw from that?

That California has 11.2% unemployment, and income tax makes up 47.5% of its total tax revenue; Oregon has 12.1% unemployment,......

What conclusion did you draw when you noticed (same source) that Massachusetts income tax makes up 57.2% of their revenue, yet their unemployment was only 7.8%, which is actually below the national average? Or how about New York, where income tax makes up 55.9% of their revenue, yet their unemployment was also 7.8%, which is also below the national average?

Is it substantially below the national level, or is it only marginally below the national level? Answer the question and you'll see how your rebuttal is irrelevant. I think you're getting stuck on trivial points, if you think you can debunk the correlation between income taxes and unemployment by pointing to states with an unemployment level below the national level, please think again. A 7.8% unemployment leve is still abnormally high

See, this is what I'm talking about, WP - I put a lot of effort into these posts, trying to make sure that what I write makes sense. But I get the sense that you have your arguments all ready to go, then you go looking for the first thing that looks like evidence, and then you edit out anything that doesn't support your argument. That's not an honest debate.

You can't accuse me of editing things out when I put the link up for you to see.

Sorry, WP, but your answers often seem to be lifted right out of the Handbook Of Conservative Positions, Abridged Ed., so what's a guy supposed to think?

That I'm a conservative? Sorry, JfC, but your personal criticism makes no sense whatsoever. The arguments you've made in this thread concerning income taxiation and unemployment are in perfect alignment with the mythical Handbook of Liberal Positions, Abridged Ed, so what am I supposed to think when you attribute to me that same criticism?

Money going to pay off bills would be less simulative than money going to fund the development of an additional branch location of a company, or money going towards a down payment on a house, or money going to pay for an overseas vacation. This is what you’ve based your entire argument on, and what you've failed to factor in is that what poor people spend their money on is not stimulative in comparison with what the money could be spent on.

OK, I completely disagree with you here, but this is good fodder for debate.

X amount of money spent on rent, utilities and food ends up in the hands of local businesses. Those businesses prosper and employ people.

X amount of money spent on opening up a new branch of a company, going towards a downpayment on a home, or paying for an overseas vacation also ends up in the hands of businesses, who in turn prosper and employ people.

Overlooking the fact that much of the money spent on an overseas vacation ends up overseas, what is the difference?

Things like rent, food and utility costs are necessities, JfC. In bad economic times, rarely do you see the electric company, or the water company, or the albertsons suffer from lack of demand because the products and services they offer are necessities. The real entities that suffer from lack of demand are companies like bookstores, clothing stores and restaurants because the products they offer are not necessities. You can't expect a poor person, barely making it paycheck to paycheck, to go out and spend any additional money he/she gets on books, clothes, travel, or a new home or car. Rather, the money will continue to go to pay for their utilities, food and rent and fund companies already doing fine. And what about the pace and extent at which the money is circulating?