Woo's Woo in Christianity

[Oldfarmhouse]

One of the problems for those who adhere to Christian doctrine (any doctrine, really) is the existence of people who were at one time strong believers in the faith and then at some point abandoned it. The reason that this is a difficult issue for the believers is that former members often provide detailed coherent descriptions of how they came to question, doubt, and eventually reject the doctrine.

Almost invariably the reasons for leaving differ between ex-members and current members. Former Christians often describe a process of investigation into the claims made by the group and ended up with very unimpressive answers. Ex-Christians discuss education and how the increase in knowledge and exposure to different cultures and ideas renders the theology useless to accurately describe the world.

On the other side Christians give very different reasons that people leave the faith. Invariably members of the faith will blame the person who left the church and never admit to the possibility theat the doctrine is inadequate. I will say that there are exceptions -- if they dont blame the person who left then its that crafty devil who led them astray.

For discussion -- why do you think Christians become ex-Christians?

[Slopeshoulder]

Hi Catalyst:

There are plenty of good reasons to change one's beliefs or leave a religion. And I honor your choices and journey. I'd only point out that oodles of people in clergy, leadership, and academics on the liberal side of the fence have great educations and would absolutely share your views regarding inaccuracies and myths. It's sort of assumed once you get into those circles (like first semester div school or in adult ed). So if confronted with discrepencies between more literalist-conservative beliefs and newly acquired facts, one could leave, or one could reframe the religion on more solid ground. I'd rather see someone leave a religion because its worldview/gestalt/lens at its best no longer resonates of feeds them. But leaving over not transitioning from literal-factual to symbolic-meaning based takes on a religion makes me sad, plays into the hands of literalists, and seems like a lost opportunity that is too often the case. So very often devout ultraorthodox belief that relies upon literal historicist truths is a loss of faith waiting to happen; it sets up the preconditions and happens just as soon as some better education and facts arrive. Like an either-or, a binary choiuce. But for many of us there was an alternative, a journey into the mythopoetic meaning of a religious tradition; for may of us it is deeply satisfying while also intellectually responsible and psychologically healthy - no idiocy or fantasy required. Still, as a priest friend once said to me, "you've gotta go where you're fed."
Best,
SS

Hi SS,

Well I think I told you in our interactions that I am a former Baptist. Perhaps that is why Oldfarmhouses's comments in the OP read to me like a near mirror image of what I went through and that is why I replied to him/her so openly on this thread.

Being a Baptist, we were taught the LITERAL, especially when things could be "tested" (as such) and that is why we went to Israel/Palestine....so that WE could show that in fact the Baptist church was the first "christian" church in Jerusalem (predating by centuries the ones propped up by the catholics...just sayin'), and also to walk where 'jesus" had walked etc ... according to the gospels. It is not like I was told that "Luke" "Mark" John" and "Matthew"..."Paul" were actually disciples or "apostles" that penned the works... THAT was a given by (with my study) within the first year. ONE thing though that did remain a constant was the assumed geographical accuracy.

NONE of what I had been lead to believe panned out as being any truth, from a purely observational level. Please appreciate when told things happened "here or there" there is an expectation of the here or there as being as the bible describes it to be. Like it or not one WOULD expect the geographic element at least to hold SOME water, even if the "message" through the gospels doesn't.

Despite that, I remained with the church for years after, because I felt my faith was 'enough", so no, I didn't just walk away after that trip.

In fact the more I delved into understanding (at least) hebrew, is when my own little " WTF ???" antenna propped itself up again. I don't know what you covered in your theological study in whole, but if you DID cover hebrew to get an M.Div, isn't the fact that Hebrew is an alphanumerical language a barrier that makes it IMPOSSIBLE for the OT(Septuagint) to be considered ANY type of VALID translation from the Hebrew? If you can show that it IS viably translatable, to others on here given they seem to respect your "creds" more than mine, then please show how.

As far as I can see now understanding it more, the Torah IS wholly untranslatable and those with an understanding & knowledge OF the Hebrew agree with me. I suppose that is why not too many Jews convert to christianity, but once they KNOW and understand, many christians DO turn to Judaism. The proof is in the OT "pudding".... once one DOES understand the Hebrew of course. In a sense it is like trying to translate katakana or kanji directly into english. CAN"T HAPPEN and when translated forth it's a mish mash and when translated back... just a mish mash of meaningless too.

Hey, I don't create the languages, I just study them to get a better grasp of the actual INTENT of the author in their language rather than opting for the feeble also ran version which invariably is nonsensical drivel. *shrug*

Anyway, I have never dissed anyone's personal choices or reasons for leaving a "faith" or even being involved in one they profess to believe in. I hope you know me well enough to understand I have a "whatever floats YOUR own personal boat" mentality.

Catalyst

Hi. I had forgotten you were Baptist, and I don't think I had an appreciation for just how much so. That sure explains a lot. It's a very different experience from my own. The Catholics I grew up with were strange, simultaneously devout yet detached, saying all sorts of traditional things, then having common sense take over and not being too hung up about it. Bible stories were told a few times to kids, but no one was too invested in it. It was just a nice story.
Regarding Hebrew, I have no opinion. I did the two year degree in div school, in which I took no ministerial practice classes but intead heavied up on academics, as well as classes in the schools of law and business. But strangely, there was no language requirement, greek or hebrew. I know NOTHING about either of them. I used to know a decent amount of german, but no more.
Regarding your open mindedness, I know, for sure.

[EduChris]

...As far as I can see now understanding it more, the Torah IS wholly untranslatable and those with an understanding & knowledge OF the Hebrew agree with me...

Try telling that to Robert Alter. Your claim, repeated above, that the "Torah IS wholly untranslatable" is simply and patently false, and it puts the lie to your claim of having received an accredited graduate-level Christian theological education--or a grad-level education of any sort that deals with language in translation. Not even Bart Ehrman, who would love to be able to make the same pronouncement as you have made, would be able to stomach such a bizarre assertion.

In short, your personal claims have no credibility whatsoever.

[JoeyKnothead]

In short, your personal claims have no credibility whatsoever.

Let's all remember that as EduChris refers so often to himself as an "intellectual Christian" while not once offering his CV or his alleged "master's thesis" for examination.

[EduChris]

...EduChris refers so often to himself as an "intellectual Christian"...

Please provide evidence for this claim. I do not recall ever referring to myself in this manner, but perhaps I'm wrong about that.

...while not once offering his CV or his alleged "master's thesis" for examination...

See here

[Slopeshoulder]

Oh, this is silly. Educhris went to a good div school, and I think I remember which one, but it's not for me to say. And it's apparent. It doesn't make one omniscient or perfect, but he is formally and well educated.

[micatala]

...As far as I can see now understanding it more, the Torah IS wholly untranslatable and those with an understanding & knowledge OF the Hebrew agree with me...

Try telling that to Robert Alter. Your claim, repeated above, that the "Torah IS wholly untranslatable" is simply and patently false, and it puts the lie to your claim of having received an accredited graduate-level Christian theological education--or a grad-level education of any sort that deals with language in translation. Not even Bart Ehrman, who would love to be able to make the same pronouncement as you have made, would be able to stomach such a bizarre assertion.

In short, your personal claims have no credibility whatsoever.

Moderator Intervention


This thread has been focused way too much on personal characteristics, in this case degrees. This particular post is entirely on such personal characteristics which are not relevant according to the rules. I understand catalyst may have volunteered information in the past on her higher education. This does not give other members license to continually make her education an issue.



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[catalyst]

...As far as I can see now understanding it more, the Torah IS wholly untranslatable and those with an understanding & knowledge OF the Hebrew agree with me...

Try telling that to Robert Alter. Your claim, repeated above, that the "Torah IS wholly untranslatable" is simply and patently false, and it puts the lie to your claim of having received an accredited graduate-level Christian theological education--or a grad-level education of any sort that deals with language in translation. Not even Bart Ehrman, who would love to be able to make the same pronouncement as you have made, would be able to stomach such a bizarre assertion.

Actually it is not false. Alter did do a translation and a nice one at that from a LITERARY position only, NOT a LITERAL one. Alter KNOWS the limitations of translating LITERALLY, because some Hebrew words simply cannot BE translated into English or any other language for that matter. He admits to that and that is why he also admits to have taken poetic license in many cases in his literary...not LITERAL.. translation.

As such my comment still stands. The Torah is NOT WHOLLY translatable and guess what Educhris, Alter would be in 100% agreement with me on this.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

In short, your personal claims have no credibility whatsoever.

Gee I apologise if it has ever come across that your opinion means anything to me.

To nip any confusion you may have on that matter in the bud, I can tell you right now, that it doesn't.

Catalyst.

[EduChris]

...all christians are relying on "chinese whispers"...The whole Christian Bible is nothing more than "purple monkey dishwasher"..the Torah IS wholly untranslatable...

...Alter did do a translation and a nice one at that...The Torah is NOT WHOLLY translatable.

You are commiting the fallacy of equivocation here, and hoping no one will notice.

You have gone from saying that the Bible is "wholly untranslatable"--i.e., that it cannot be translated at all, not with even one little whit of accuracy--to saying that it can be translated very nicely, but in some cases a strictly literal translation is not possible or advisable (which is of course always the case when translating anything of substance from one language to another).

You are trying to backpedal away from your original claims--now that they've been shown untenable--but your efforts are as unconvincing as the person trying to backpedal from his evident surprise at learning that the earth revolves around the sun, after having previously claimed to have academic credentials in modern physics.

[catalyst]

...all christians are relying on "chinese whispers"...The whole Christian Bible is nothing more than "purple monkey dishwasher"..the Torah IS wholly untranslatable...

...Alter did do a translation and a nice one at that...The Torah is NOT WHOLLY translatable.

You are commiting the fallacy of equivocation here, and hoping no one will notice.

You have gone from saying that the Bible is "wholly untranslatable"--i.e., that it cannot be translated at all, not with even one little whit of accuracy--to saying that it can be translated very nicely, but in some cases a strictly literal translation is not possible or advisable.

You are trying to backpedal away from your original claims--now that they've been shown untenable--but your efforts are as unconvincing as the person trying to backpedal from his evident surprise at learning that the earth revolves around the sun, after having previously claimed to have academic credentials in modern physics.

*sigh* I am not trying to backpedal at all. I am even happy to put it back the way it was. the Torah IS WHOLLY UNTRANSLATABLE. THAT is why Alter took a LITERARY take on it, rather than LITERAL, simply because it cannot be done LITERALLY.

Yes he did a good job considering what he was ABLE to translate into English. Have you even READ it? HE has little footnotes everywhere explaining WHY he couldn't translate it all - WHOLLY.

What part of WHOLLY do you not understand?

entirely - completely - fully - altogether - to the exclusion of other things - to the full and entire extent...... completely, totally, or entirely without exception; exclusively

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/wholly

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/wholly

As such, my point still stands and also I will say again, Alter WOULD agree with me, not you Educhris.

Look Educhris, I know you have some obstruction...perhaps in the rectal region about me, and have ever since I called you out on your "Principles of Charity" thread. I get it.. I hurt your widdle feewings.

Don't you reckon it's time you grew up and got over it? Seriously?

I reckon the only one you are making look a fool here, is you. *shrug*

Catalyst.

[EduChris]

...Alter WOULD agree with me, not you...

Alter would agree with me, and against you, on your initial claim.

Alter and I and anyone else who knows anything about languages would all agree with your backpedaled revision--a revision which equivocates on your original claim.