What empirical evidence could there be for God?

[Haven]

In my years of debating God's existence (both as an evangelical Christian and an atheist), I have heard countless philosophical arguments for the existence of God. The Kalam Cosmological Argument (KCA), Anselm's Ontological Argument, the Teleological Argument, and the Moral Argument, among others, all seek to establish God's existence through the use of pure logic and reasoning. However, I have yet to see a Christian put forth an empirical case for God's existence (empirical, in this case, means physical, testable, analyzable by science). In fact, I don't feel that it is even possible, in principle, to put forth an empirical argument for God's existence, because of the common properties assigned to God (i.e., omnipresence, omniscience, timelessness, etc.).

So, for the debate question: What empirical evidence could there be for God? How would we discover this evidence? How could we determine it pointed to a God rather than a naturalistic entity?

For the sake of this discussion, a definition of God:

(1) A single, supernatural being that created our universe
(2) A personal mind with thoughts, feelings, emotions, and plans
(3) A maximally benevolent, morally righteous entity
(4) An omnipresent, omniscient entity
(5) An eternal being, the "first cause" of reality."
(

[earl]

Artie, If one says God does not exist then one must also say the universe is an automation,spontaneous and above all mechanistic.

We have no evidence that the universe is anything but mechanistic. The earth doesn't revolve around the sun because it has made up its mind to do so or because it enjoys it. It does it because of gravity.

If the universe is then mechanistic then a machine is what man really is.

A biological self-aware machine where surgeons like mechanics can fix or even replace biological parts with mechanical ones.

And since man would then be a machine ,man the machine is void of the ability to "know".A machine cannot "know". See the link below on how we "know". Do you know of a machine that is capable of being something other than a machine? If men were only machines then men will act as such.Machines cannot think for themselves ,muchless know truth or love.What about a machine possessing self consciousness?
Who then would agree to the belief that they are a machine ?

This is a very interesting and complicated question that can't be answered in a few sentences. As a start I have found an interesting article at http://edge.org/3rd_culture/ramachandra ... index.html. There is a simple test to determine whether a man's self-awareness and consciousness is located in the wonderful biological computer we call the brain. Give him a knock over the head and watch his self-awareness and consciousness disappear! On second thought, don't take that literally...

You have inserted a sentence of your own into my quote.It reads,"See the link below on how we "know".
I am sure this was unintentional on your behalf.

[Artie]

Artie, If one says God does not exist then one must also say the universe is an automation,spontaneous and above all mechanistic.

We have no evidence that the universe is anything but mechanistic. The earth doesn't revolve around the sun because it has made up its mind to do so or because it enjoys it. It does it because of gravity.

If the universe is then mechanistic then a machine is what man really is.

A biological self-aware machine where surgeons like mechanics can fix or even replace biological parts with mechanical ones.

And since man would then be a machine ,man the machine is void of the ability to "know".A machine cannot "know". Do you know of a machine that is capable of being something other than a machine? If men were only machines then men will act as such.Machines cannot think for themselves ,muchless know truth or love.What about a machine possessing self consciousness?
Who then would agree to the belief that they are a machine ?

This is a very interesting and complicated question that can't be answered in a few sentences. As a start I have found an interesting article at http://edge.org/3rd_culture/ramachandra ... index.html. There is a simple test to determine whether a man's self-awareness and consciousness is located in the wonderful biological computer we call the brain. Give him a knock over the head and watch his self-awareness and consciousness disappear! On second thought, don't take that literally...

You have inserted a sentence of your own into my quote.It reads,"See the link below on how we "know".I am sure this was unintentional on your behalf.

Oops. Sorry. Forget quotes sometimes. Too late to remove it in the original post.

[earl]

Artie,
Since you have said that the universe cannot be anything other than mechanistic then the question now is,
If the universe is mechanistic how then can man be more than the composition of a mechanism(universe) that being greater than a machine with attributes greater than that substance which he comes from?
Would you not say that,in your personal observations, a universe that is nothing more than a mechanism is void of consciousness within such.
Man must then evidently be of the same substance from which he comes without any inclusion of substances foriegn to the universe,that also being void of consciousness .
Or is man as well as the universe maintain a consciousness therefore they both are not machines?

[Artie]

Artie,
Since you have said that the universe cannot be anything other than mechanistic then the question now is,
If the universe is mechanistic how then can man be more than the composition of a mechanism(universe) that being greater than a machine with attributes greater than that substance which he comes from?
Would you not say that,in your personal observations, a universe that is nothing more than a mechanism is void of consciousness within such.
Man must then evidently be of the same substance from which he comes without any inclusion of substances foriegn to the universe,that also being void of consciousness .
Or is man as well as the universe maintain a consciousness therefore they both are not machines?

I am not quite sure what you are asking but I think you are asking why man is conscious while the universe is not. This is simply because the interplay between neurons and synapses in the brain produces consciousness. This is pretty evident since major trauma to the brain removes consciousness.

[EduChris]

...I have heard countless philosophical arguments for the existence of God...However, I have yet to see a Christian put forth an empirical case for God's existence (empirical, in this case, means physical, testable, analyzable by science)...What empirical evidence could there be for God? How would we discover this evidence?...

The empirical evidence is the same for theism as it is for non-theism; this evidence consists of our universe and our selves.

...How could we determine it pointed to a God rather than a naturalistic entity?...

Logical, philosophical analysis of the available interpretive options.

[Flail]

...I have heard countless philosophical arguments for the existence of God...However, I have yet to see a Christian put forth an empirical case for God's existence (empirical, in this case, means physical, testable, analyzable by science)...What empirical evidence could there be for God? How would we discover this evidence?...

The empirical evidence is the same for theism as it is for non-theism; this evidence consists of our universe and our selves.

...How could we determine it pointed to a God rather than a naturalistic entity?...

Logical, philosophical analysis of the available interpretive options.

And the primary option chosen by most Christians is the very same as that of a few first century flat earther propagandists who, long after the fact, insisted that legendary/mythical tales of the supernatural were factual.

[Haven]

I still think this question is relevant: is there any empirical evidence for God (as defined in the OP), and how could we know that? Religion seems to function on faith (as it should, in my opinion), but nevertheless there are some Christians (particularly apologists) who think that they can show their deity exists with empirical evidence. Is there an empirical case for the philosophical God (as defined in the OP)? For the Christian god? For any gods?

*The definition of "empirical," for the sake of this discussion, is:

1) Testable
2) Objective
3) Analyzable by science

[Haven]

I know three years is a long time to wait to respond .

...I have heard countless philosophical arguments for the existence of God...However, I have yet to see a Christian put forth an empirical case for God's existence (empirical, in this case, means physical, testable, analyzable by science)...What empirical evidence could there be for God? How would we discover this evidence?...

The empirical evidence is the same for theism as it is for non-theism; this evidence consists of our universe and our selves.

I think a universe containing a God would be different than one without such a being. For example, I think a God-containing universe would have very little or no suffering, while a universe without a God would contain a significant amount of suffering. A universe with a God might also have more obvious examples of divine intervention, such as direct communications with conscious beings or messages in the stars.

The fact that suffering exists and there aren't any obvious divine communications seems to suggest that it's more likely that our universe doesn't contain a God.

[Psalm139]

[Replying to post 1 by Haven]

There isn't any empirical evidence that God exists because He is outside His creation.

An analogy of that would go like this;

A Sims character inside the computer simulation game called "The Sims" will never see the programmers of the game, although the programmers could contact the characters by designing it in a way that these characters are the only ones who hear them speak. The programmer could use these characters to testify to the knowledge of how this program was created and how all the images that the characters could observe were formed from information.

[Psalm139]

[Replying to post 78 by Haven]

That universe without suffering is coming soon. Just be patient until your body dies in this world. Then you will get new bodies to experience all the new fun things that God has planned for ALL His people to enjoy. I like to call this Paradise when there won't be anymore suffering.

Isaiah 65
16: So that he who blesses himself in the land shall bless himself by the God of truth, and he who takes an oath in the land shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten and are hid from my eyes.
17: "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.
18: But be glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create; for behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19: I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and be glad in my people; no more shall be heard in it the sound of weeping and the cry of distress.