I am seriously questioning my atheism

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Haven

I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #1

Post by Haven »

Disclaimer: This post may be out of place on the Christianity and Apologetics forum (even though it does have some relation to Christianity), if it is, I apologize and ask that it be moved to a more appropriate place on the forum. However, I do intend this thread to be a discussion, if not a debate, so I felt this was the best place for it.

As many of you know, I am an ex-evangelical Christian and a current atheist. By "atheist," I mean I lack belief in god(s) of any kind, although I do not assert that there are definitely no gods. Since departing from Christianity, everything has made so much more sense: an eternal Universe (defined as the totality of natural existence) explained existence, evolution explained the diversity of life on earth, the absence of god(s) explained the problems of evil, inconsistent revelation, and so on.

However, there is one thing that I have been unable to account for under atheism: morality. Atheists almost invariably state that moral values and duties are not objective facts, but are simply subjective statements of preference and have no ontological value. That is, of course, until we are presented with cases of true evil, such as the Holocaust, the atrocities of Pol Pot, or the horrible psychopathic serial killings of individuals like Jeffery Dahmer. Then we as atheists tacitly appeal to objective moral values and duties, saying that individuals who commit should be severely punished (even executed) for doing "evil," saying that they "knew right from wrong." But if right and wrong are simply statements of subjective opinion, then how can we say that others knew "right from wrong" and are accountable for their actions? If relativism is true, they simply had differing opinions from the majority of human beings. However, it seems obvious to me (and to the vast majority of others, theist and atheist alike) that this is absurd -- the monsters who carried out the aforementioned acts really, objectively did evil.

Given this, the only reasonable conclusion is that moral facts and imperatives exist.

However, atheism appears to offer no framework for moral facts. Because of this, a few weeks ago, I started up a discussion on Wielenbergian moral realism, which states that objective moral values are simply "brute facts" that exist without any explanation. However, others rightly pointed out that the existence of "brute facts" is ontologically problematic and that the best explanation (on atheism) is that morality is simply subjective. Additionally, even if atheistic moral facts existed, the Humeian problem of deriving an "ought" from an "is" would preclude them from acting as moral imperatives; commands which human beings are obligated to follow.

In light of these airtight logical objections to atheistic moral realism, I was forced to abandon my position on moral facts and tentatively adopt moral relativism. However, relativism still seems problematic. After all, if morality is subjective, no one person can accuse another of failing to recognize the difference between "right and wrong," however, it is obvious to me (and, I would suspect, to other atheists as well) that right or wrong really objectively (not subjectively) exist.

The only rational conclusion I can seem to come up with is that there is a (are) transcendent moral lawgiver(s) who both grounds moral facts and issues binding moral commands on all humanity; i.e., God(s). This echoes evangelical Christian philosopher William Lane Craig's moral argument, which syllogism reads:
WLC wrote:Premise 1: If God does not exist, then objective moral values and duties do not exist.
Premise 2: Objective moral values and duties do exist
Conclusion: Therefore, God exists
Premises 1 and 2 seem bulletproof -- (1) was demonstrated earlier in this post, leaving (2) as the only premise to attack. However, (2) seems to be as obvious as a hand in front of my face. The conclusion necessarily follows from (1) and (2), so is there any rational reason for me to reject the conclusion of the argument?

Remember, I am no believer of any kind. I am a staunch, educated, informed atheist, and I am well aware of the philosophical arguments against God(s), such as the problem of evil, the dysteleological argument, the problem of omniscience, etc. I'm also well aware of the plentiful empirical evidence against the existence of God(s), for instance, evolution, mind-body physicalism, etc. These are the reasons I reconverted from Christianity in the first place. However, I don't see way around this problem other than to accept either that our apparently obvious sense of moral facts is somehow mistaken, or that (a) theistic being(s) exist.

Debate question: Are my issues with atheism legitimate? Can atheism provide a coherent moral framework other than nihilism, relativism, or subjectivism? Do these problems really present evidence for theism? Is William Lane Craig right? Is this a real problem for atheism, or are my (our) emotions simply overriding my (our) rationality?

Feel free to present evidence for or against atheism, Christianity, or any religious or nonreligious perspective in this thread.

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Post #251

Post by Artie »

spoirier wrote:
Haven wrote:Using utilitarian ethics, the most moral thing to do would be to kill the healthy man and use his organs as transplants for your five dying patients, thereby saving five lives. However, doing so would be absolutely evil and morally abhorrent, and everyone knows it. You cannot take the life of an innocent person in order to save other lives -- that is wrong. However, under utilitarianism, it would be right. This entails a contradiction, and this makes utilitarian ethics false.
Would letting 4 people die while it could be avoided, be the right choice ?
Would giving up my own life to save five others be the right choice? That would be suicide.

Haven

Post #252

Post by Haven »

Artie wrote:Would giving up my own life to save five others be the right choice? That would be suicide.
In my opinion, yes, it would be the right choice. I would absolutely give up my own life if I had the chance to save five other lives.

spayne

Post #253

Post by spayne »

JoeyKnothead wrote:From Post 245:
spayne wrote:
JoeyKnothead wrote: Where there are starving folks, in the millions, I contend this is not indicative of a "good" God, but of a God that prefers folks suffer over lifting a finger to help.
And I would contend that it is the result of a brutal world that has rejected God.
Either way, my point stands.

Now, what we're really getting at here is that the folks in question may not worship the god you prefer to worship, so they're being left to their misery. How might'n we convince them of the worship worthiness of a god that we can't show exists? How might'n we convince them that you, spayne, have confirmed your favored god prefers folks to act or think in a certain fashion?
I think your argument is a classic case of the atheist seeing the misery in the world and blaming God for it. But that is not the Christian worldview. The Christian does not blame God for the evil in the world because God explicitly holds people personally and corporally accountable to make good decisions, and is very clear that He is not going to step in and exert his will over the freedom of choice that people want to have. That would be a dictatorship. It's obviously very hard to undertand the reality of poverty. But I believe that many Christians would confirm that poverty, like so many other social ills, is a consequence or a symptom of a world that is full of greed, pride, selfishness, conquest and conflict. Hence, my statement that starvation is the result of a brutal world that has rejected God.

On the other end we have statements in the Bible that God's love for people is incomprehensible and unending. And I believe he hears the cries of the broken...those who are in a state of starvation or some other kind of misery for example. And if they are willing to reach out to him (many are not), he will be their "refuge and strength, an ever-present help in trouble," as Psalm 46 states.

Blessings to you today.

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Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #254

Post by Chase200mph »


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Post #255

Post by Chase200mph »


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Post #256

Post by Chase200mph »

Haven wrote:
Artie wrote:Would giving up my own life to save five others be the right choice? That would be suicide.
In my opinion, yes, it would be the right choice. I would absolutely give up my own life if I had the chance to save five other lives.
Would you give up your life if you could save those people without giving up your life……because that would be suicide?

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Post #257

Post by Autodidact »

Oh, I see. Circular reasoning.

Howso?
Your evidence for your God is the Bible. And your evidence for the Bible is?
Autodidact wrote:Of course. Like most of the world's religionists, you believe what you were taught as a child.
My parents aren't Calvinists. And given most =/= all, how is this relevant?
Were they Christians? Are you Christian? Do you think there's any causal relationship between those two facts?
Autodidact wrote:"Whimsical" would be a kind way to describe your God's treatment of these people. I would choose "cruel" "arbitrary" and "bizarre."
It would be a false description. You haven't even attempted to show that the actions in the lives of these persons cannot function as a means to the manifestation of God's glory
.

And apparently, that's what matters to you. Babies stabbed to death, men, women and children drowned, innocent children killed so God can win a bet about their dad, and many, many, innocent children killed for the "sins" of their fathers, such as worshipping the wrong God, and
(1) Your God is glorified by that. That's an immoral God you have there.
(2) That's what matters in your moral system. I think that's all we really need to know about your moral system, Knight.

As I say, Calvinism = evil.
Autodidact wrote:I don't need one.

Then it seems you rather than God act arbitrarily.
Not at all. What kind of life do you want to live, Knight, a good one or a bad one?
Autodidact wrote:It's simply what our goal is. Is that not your goal? If you prefer to be miserable, and live a lousy life, this system will not help you. Do you?

It isn't preferable per se, but it isn't my goal either.
What is not preferable, happiness to suffering? A good life to a bad one?
1 Corinthians 10:31 So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

1 Peter 4:16 Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name.
Well, since we've shown that your God is a genocidal, vengeful, baby-killer, morality prevents me from glorifying Him. YMMV.
Autodidact wrote:Great. Go for it. Let's start by having it revealed to me, for example.
Deuteronomy 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.
Nope. No revelation to me, just an interesting voyage into the Ancient History of an ancient, iron age people. I thought you said you had evidence.
Autodidact wrote:Well that is simply factually incorrect, as has been shown by reams of research. Even toddlers demonstrate empathy. You see it around you every day.
Like my brother who gets my sister in trouble for claiming she did the bad thing he did? Did you ever go to high school?
I didn't say no one ever does anything wrong, just that people have the capacity for empathy. If you dispute it, I will be happy to provide reams of research that demonstrates this fact. Are you familiar with mirror neurons?
Autodidact wrote:Did you say you're a Calvinist? That is such a evil moral system, I can't imagine how you can discuss the subject coherently. I mean, if you really believe that all people, including newborn babies, are totally depraved, you don't have a good basis on which to respect or, for that matter, feel empathy for them.
Other than that I was one?
You believe that having been a baby qualifies you to opine about morality? Well, I think we all meet that qualification. However, many of us have higher qualifications than that.
Autodidact wrote:And you say this is what God instructs you? He must be evil as well. That fits His actions as described in the Bible. Only a being who believed that babies were totally depraved could command His soldiers to stab them to death.
Bait rejected. You have no recourse to an epistemic system according to which you can know what one should or is obligated to do, so any definition of evil you have is purely arbitrary.
On the contrary. Unlike you, mine is objective, and grounded in empiricism, as is my epistemology. Science--it works.

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Post #258

Post by Autodidact »

This, I contend, is an example of the god concept in action. Notice the change of meaning employed to continue the notion of a "good" God.

Where there are starving folks, in the millions, I contend this is not indicative of a "good" God, but of a God that prefers folks suffer over lifting a finger to help.
And I would contend that it is the result of a brutal world that has rejected God.
Could you explain how that works exactly? Is God punishing people for rejecting them by inflicting starvation on them? Or what?

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Post #259

Post by Autodidact »

Autodidact wrote:If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion.
-Dalai Lama
This may work in some cases and also hopefully in the ultimate level of life review after death. However there are also many cases when both purposes do not match. Some ways of practicing compassion may only succeed to make oneself happy at the expense of others
Such as what?That sounds like the opposite of compassion to me.
(see there the section "The spiritual ego, in practice"), while some of the best possible actions, such as developing something (a new technology, a piece of art...) that will benefit millions, fails to make oneself happy during this life to any proportional extent, for lack of personally knowing the beneficiaries of one's actions
. I don't think so. I think, for example, that developing the polio made Dr. Jonas Salk very happy.
Again, see also that big type of example, of how both purposes may diverge, so that not the same type of compassion would best help either purpose during this life.
I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're saying.

Here is another way of putting it:
When I do good, I feel good, and when I do bad, I feel bad, and that is my religion. --Abraham Lincoln

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Post #260

Post by Autodidact »

Now, what we're really getting at here is that the folks in question may not worship the god you prefer to worship, so they're being left to their misery. How might'n we convince them of the worship worthiness of a god that we can't show exists? How might'n we convince them that you, spayne, have confirmed your favored god prefers folks to act or think in a certain fashion?
I think your argument is a classic case of the atheist seeing the misery in the world and blaming God for it
. I think you're confused about what atheism is.
But that is not the Christian worldview. The Christian does not blame God for the evil in the world because God explicitly holds people personally and corporally accountable to make good decisions, and is very clear that He is not going to step in and exert his will over the freedom of choice that people want to have
. Yes, it's so funny, but He always acts exactly as if He didn't exist.
That would be a dictatorship. It's obviously very hard to undertand the reality of poverty. But I believe that many Christians would confirm that poverty, like so many other social ills, is a consequence or a symptom of a world that is full of greed, pride, selfishness, conquest and conflict. Hence, my statement that starvation is the result of a brutal world that has rejected God.
Yes, could you justify your statement with any evidence and logic?
On the other end we have statements in the Bible that God's love for people is incomprehensible and unending. And I believe he hears the cries of the broken...those who are in a state of starvation or some other kind of misery for example. And if they are willing to reach out to him (many are not), he will be their "refuge and strength, an ever-present help in trouble," as Psalm 46 states.
And when He hears them, He apparently does absolutely nothing, again behaving exactly consistently with failing to exist. It's funny how He always acts that way, isn't it?

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