Did (could) God create evil?

[HannaH]

I was just wondering, if God is responsible for creating everything in the universe, was it God that created evil? If God did not create evil, is that to say that God is incapable of creating something? Also, who created it? How can "Satan" have created it if only God can create? And if God did create evil, than isn't God responsible for sin in the first place, not Satan and not Adam and not Eve?

It gets confusing and none of it makes much sense to me; it seems to create more questions than answers.

[Bro Dave]

Dear, Bro Dave. First of all, I respect you no matter what you think, however; but to say that God did not "create" evil (or good for that matter) is a bit of a cop out. There I said it. Evil, even if it just a mere concept, had to come from somewhere

.

“Evil” is simply an unrefined state of understanding. Acts are committed instinctually, without forethought. Once you move beyond that point, then looking “back” at those acts, they are judged as being “evil”.

When you say: "He did create a system capable of being evil. This was a necessary starting point for growth to occur." To me that's like a man who rigs a game and then punishes people who play and lose because of his tampering. It's like making a kid handicapped and then punishing the kid for being handicapped.

If you are talking about a Christian concept of God, that would be a reasonable conclusion. However, since God is not in the “eternal punishment” game, it does not apply. God is only interested in our spiritual welfare and growth, in which He participates as a partner.

And when you speak of growth, what growth? With all the murder, wars, bloodshed and mayhem in the world, it doesn't seem to be getting any better, not saying it's getting worse, but we don't seem to be learning from our mistakes. Anyway, that's what it seems like to me, but I think I've missed something.

This perception comes from our intense interconnectivity. We instantly see nearly every evil in real time, world wide! Just read a little even fairly recent history, and you see we are indeed improving.

Bro Dave

[aventaquin]

Good and Evil do not exist, only reason and free will. Something is only right or wrong, or good or evil because somebody said so. It is no humans right to dictate what is right or wrong. One only has the option of making choices which will benefit oneself, and surround oneself with persons like themselves.
All of the so-called sins out there are deviations of natural animalistic human behaviour which has been exaggerated and skewed over time by imagination and chemical imbalance.
Wasn't it evil when GW Bush declared war on and killed tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi's for no provable reason? But isn't he a good Christian that follows the Bible's teachings?
It is personal motive which fuels every decision everyone makes, and there are some people which have evolved from "evil" people which themselves are "evil."
Nature and nurture produce results, ever heard of Pavlov's dog. If that dog were taught to be evil and kill everything in it's path, it would.

[Nirvana-Eld]

Geez buddy i was really agreeing with you until you brought up the Iraqi war. Wow are your views skewed. I know its off topic and I might even start a thread on it but in my opinion The war in Iraq is justfied. If you know anything about the nature of a just war, dictated by international law (originated from St. Thomas Aquainas) you would know that three things are needed to make a war just.

1) a just cause - in this case the opression of an entire population, the possibility of WMD's, Genocide (he killed at least 1,000,000 according to Iraqi estamates), and defying U.N. sanctions for decades.

2) a just/legitimate authority - in the world today, The United States is one of the fwew legitimate authorities when compared to head U.N. countries like China and Russia.

and lastly

3) a just intent - an end to illegal weapons programs, protection of a region, liberation of a people, end to tyranny, the list goes on my friend.

To say that G. W. declared war on the people is simply un-informed. He never said "hey i hate those stupid "hajis" lets kill em!" his intent was always to liberate Iraq and stop teh production of weapons of mass destruction.

At the time the declaration of war was passed through Congress, everyone had the same intelligence, saw the same data, the reason we did not find weapons of mass destruction was faulty intelligence. Please at least have an understanding of the issue of Iraq.

As for the rest of your post that was RELEVANT to the topic, I agree that evil does not exist, but if an infinite good created us, then in our nature we must be good too, our free will though allows us to deviate from what we know is right and wrong (thats why we have a conscience)

AS for Pavlov's Dog, theres a big difference between a dog and a human.

[aventaquin]

I'm only stating my opinion, not preaching directly.
If you will go back and read your list of excuses for the occupation in Iraq, honestly consider what you wrote, then compare your opinions with reality.
WMD's? There is endless footage of GW and his administration declaring there was/is, without a doubt, WMD's in Iraq. Obviously that was a blatant lie. And as for the intelligence failure, what about the pre-9/11 memo which stated Bin Laden was planning an attack? Who's fault was that?
The genocide, which has been happening in that region for thousands of years before the democratic US existed, is simply not our country's concern. Democracy cannot be handed to someone, it must be born from within and fought for, or it simply will not be appreciated. How would you like it if Saddam's government came into your country and told you how to live?
Something tells me you are pro-globalization, probably want everyone and exerything to be the same, now that sounds like a fun existence.
It is amazing how someone like yourself wants everything to be laced with roses and daisies, and wants eveything to be "good." Well good cannot exist without an inverse-evil.
But, wait?? I thought you said you didn't believe in good and evil?

[Nirvana-Eld]

First take a look at this thread and you will see my position clearly, that my intention is not to protect the Bush administration (G.W. can't even do that decently), but look at the situation unbiasedly and make a decision on wether or not, given the circumstances within the country was it justified. I do believe that the U.S. gave the wrong reasons and went about this war totally wrong but none the less, if the Iraqi people are to have any sort of freedom or protection, this was necessary. Now to tear down your argument.

And as for the intelligence failure, what about the pre-9/11 memo which stated Bin Laden was planning an attack? Who's fault was that?

The Clinton Administration had the ability to capture Osama Bin-Laden. The Sudanese government basically said "We have him he's right here and you can have him if you want." And we declined. Also

A 1998 CIA document warned then President Clinton, of possible hijackings of airliners by the Al Qaeda. The report and other notes from the "SECRET" classified daily briefings held with the president are schedule to be declassified. The declassification is in preparation for presentation of the documents to the bipartisan commission investigating government failures related to the 2001 hijacked plane attacks, in which 3,000 people died.

http://english.pravda.ru/mailbox/22/101 ... _Bush.html

There's no need to sling mud at people who don't deserve it right? Know your facts.

The genocide, which has been happening in that region for thousands of years before the democratic US existed, is simply not our country's concern.

I'm talking specifically about the genocide that happened under Saddam Hussein's tyranical regime. Under which 1,000,000 Iraqis (mostly Kurds) died. Why would i be complaining about something that happened apparently thousands of years before the U.S. existed? And as i state in the relevant thread, It is all of our concern (according to philosopher John Locke I'm sure you've heard of him right?)

Democracy cannot be handed to someone, it must be born from within and fought for, or it simply will not be appreciated. How would you like it if Saddam's government came into your country and told you how to live?

Interesting, from what i remember, after ousting Saddam Hussein we let them choose what kind of government they wanted, didn't we? If you watch the news, you know that they chose a parlimetary system of government. After letting them choose, we didn't tell them to do anything. Another thing, what if they are unable to create this democracy? (According to the recent elections they wanted it or at least glad to have it with voter turn-out over 70%) If they are not getting the protection they deserve from, lets say, the U.N., then protection must come from somewhere else. (John Locke)

Something tells me you are pro-globalization, probably want everyone and exerything to be the same, now that sounds like a fun existence.

Something tells me you are the kind of person that likes to judge people you don't know and accuse them of things that aren't true. That I find interesting.

If by globalization you mean I believe that every human everywhere has responsibility to each other, then yup you caught me.

t is amazing how someone like yourself wants everything to be laced with roses and daisies, and wants eveything to be "good." Well good cannot exist without an inverse-evil.
But, wait?? I thought you said you didn't believe in good and evil?

Its amazing how someone like yourself thinks that they know me on a personal level and from there can make character based attacks on me. Thats REALLY something isn't it?

If you read this thread at all, you would see that I believe that good is a human's essential nature. Why do we feel good when we do something for someone else that benifits us in no way? Is it because were good? I think so. In this way I agree with you. Good (essential nature) has an inverse-evil (going against our essential nature).

I'm glad I was able to clear myself up for you without lowering myself to your level.

[edit]
By the way here is the link to the thread that I started for debate on the War in Iraq. http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... sc&start=0

[HannaH]

Bro Dave, I do agree with you when you say that "Acts are committed instinctually, without forethought. Once you move beyond that point, then looking “back” at those acts, they are judged as being “evil”."

It is my opinion that "evil" is a societal concept subject to change, many different interpretations, and that history/anthropology/sociology has taught us that the idea of what constitutes "evil" differs between cultures (EX: Homosexuality, cannibalism, incest, etc). I don't have a problem with that. What I have difficulty with, is the hindsight factor. It's the looking back and recognizing something as evil. Why is it that every culture, regardless of what they view as evil, still has some taboos? What put the concept of "evil" there, regardless of what they think the evil is? That sense of "judging" something as "evil" had to come from somewhere. Calling it an idea, a concept, a "shadow," an "unrefined state of understanding," does not explain where it comes from and who put it there. I do acknowledge that it is possible that God could have given some of his powers to one of his angels, ("Sons," whatever you want to call them) and that angel created "evil." But then we could get into the old predestination argument saying that God knew what the angel was going to do, and thus it is still God's fault. However, I am not a big proponent of predestination, so I won't even go there for now.

"If you are talking about a Christian concept of God, that would be a reasonable conclusion. However, since God is not in the “eternal punishment” game, it does not apply. God is only interested in our spiritual welfare and growth, in which He participates as a partner."

You say that God is a partner. I've never heard God referred to in this manner. Please elaborate.

[snappyanswer]

Think of it in terms of being a parent. You want to create a person knowing they will have free will to do good or bad. Or building a machine like a car that is good but is capable of great harm. Everyone knows that in putting something in motion there is potential for good and bad. It seems inherent in creation.

[Cathar1950]

A good parents hopes for their children to grow up and be friends.
What are we as parents but wiser older children?
Hope full even the worse parents want their kids to grow up and buy their own cars? At least some day. Some day they will have kids of their own.