![Laughing :lol:](./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
I would recomend this book to both Christians and atheists alike, as a faith strengthener, and as a converter.
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What really bothered me about Atheism? Well, it was mainly the idea that nothing matters. I realized, if everything that is, turns to nothing when it no longer is, and it is therefore as if it never existed, and eventually everything passes away, I realized having morals was completely ridiculous. You get one life. Spend it however you want to. Why live by rules if you only get a relatively short time on earth before you just drop dead and are forgotten? But of course a world where everyone does what they feel like doing is going to get out of hand fast. I then started to realize that morals were necessary, and not just objective morals, but absolute. Rape will always be wrong. Sane women today don't want to be raped, sane women yesterday didn't want to be raped, and sane women tomorrow won't want to be raped. However, absolute morals require a moral "setter", if you will. Thus I was able to rationally reach God, along with a great amount of reading and listening.Quath wrote: My grandmother send that book to me when she found out I was an atheist. She also sent the Case for Christ, New Evidence that Demands a Verdict and the Left Behind series.
After reading them, I went from an apathetic atheist to an activist atheist. I could not believe the lies, deceptions, horrible mangled logic and the assault on reason promoted by these books. They are really bad.
I would suggest that you present some of the stuff that really bothered you about atheism for discussion. You are getting a very one-sided version that in a lot of cases is misleading and in some places is just a lie.
I don't care if you convert from atheist, just don't do it based on bad data.
1 let me address this point: Haven mentioned the authors of the book were young earth Creationists, and if you insist on being a Christian, you need not accept Creationism. I recommend The Language of God by Francis Collins. He is a fundamentalist Christian, but as a scientist is opposed to Creationist and ID thought. His logical reasons for finding Christianity true are beyond me and many of his peers, but his science is sound, as far as Evolution goes. Dawkins and Collins are both Evolutionist but they argue philosophical ideas about purpose and god in their work... as Ken Miller explains (also a theist who is a strong opponent of ID and Creationism)rosey wrote:What really bothered me about Atheism? Well, it was mainly the idea that nothing matters. I realized, if everything that is, turns to nothing when it no longer is, and it is therefore as if it never existed, and eventually everything passes away, I realized having morals was completely ridiculous. You get one life. Spend it however you want to. Why live by rules if you only get a relatively short time on earth before you just drop dead and are forgotten? But of course a world where everyone does what they feel like doing is going to get out of hand fast. I then started to realize that morals were necessary, and not just objective morals, but absolute. Rape will always be wrong. Sane women today don't want to be raped, sane women yesterday didn't want to be raped, and sane women tomorrow won't want to be raped. However, absolute morals require a moral "setter", if you will. Thus I was able to rationally reach God, along with a great amount of reading and listening.Quath wrote: My grandmother send that book to me when she found out I was an atheist. She also sent the Case for Christ, New Evidence that Demands a Verdict and the Left Behind series.
After reading them, I went from an apathetic atheist to an activist atheist. I could not believe the lies, deceptions, horrible mangled logic and the assault on reason promoted by these books. They are really bad.
I would suggest that you present some of the stuff that really bothered you about atheism for discussion. You are getting a very one-sided version that in a lot of cases is misleading and in some places is just a lie.
I don't care if you convert from atheist, just don't do it based on bad data.
2 I strongly disagree with your interpretation of what Atheism is. If this definition you give is your primary motivation for conversion, well, I think I can understand where you are coming from and why you sought out something else. However, we need to look at this again.rosey wrote:What really bothered me about Atheism? Well, it was mainly the idea that nothing matters. I realized, if everything that is, turns to nothing when it no longer is, and it is therefore as if it never existed, and eventually everything passes away, I realized having morals was completely ridiculous.
3 Of course, you get one earthly life; as far as science is concerned that's the only life we can be certain of. Make it count. WHY? Because if no one gave a damn, it would suck for everyone.rosey wrote:You get one life. Spend it however you want to. Why live by rules if you only get a relatively short time on earth before you just drop dead and are forgotten? But of course a world where everyone does what they feel like doing is going to get out of hand fast.
Hobbes, as qtd. in Wikipedia wrote:In such condition, there is no place for industry; because the fruit thereof is uncertain: and consequently no culture of the earth; no navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be imported by sea; no commodious building; no instruments of moving, and removing, such things as require much force; no knowledge of the face of the earth; no account of time; no arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.
— "Chapter XIII.: Of the Natural Condition of Mankind As Concerning Their Felicity, and Misery.", Leviathan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Hobbes#Leviathan
4 Morals are necessary for well-being on this planet, whether a god exists or not. Betterment of the human condition and well-being seem like a good thing, in terms of a universal good -- that is the foundation for an objective standard if there ever was one -- and when I say objective, I mean it in sort of a universal sense, something that actually means something to humanity as a whole.rosey wrote:I then started to realize that morals were necessary, and not just objective morals, but absolute. Rape will always be wrong. Sane women today don't want to be raped, sane women yesterday didn't want to be raped, and sane women tomorrow won't want to be raped.
5 While I agree that establishing law requires law enforcement, which may or may not encourage adherence to the law; authorities exist to protect society from those who lack a moral compass because of religious or mental reasons. But power, authority and might should never be equated with moralityrosey wrote:However, absolute morals require a moral "setter", if you will. Thus I was able to rationally reach God, along with a great amount of reading and listening.
And what gave you that idea?rosey wrote:What really bothered me about Atheism? Well, it was mainly the idea that nothing matters.Quath wrote: My grandmother send that book to me when she found out I was an atheist. She also sent the Case for Christ, New Evidence that Demands a Verdict and the Left Behind series.
After reading them, I went from an apathetic atheist to an activist atheist. I could not believe the lies, deceptions, horrible mangled logic and the assault on reason promoted by these books. They are really bad.
I would suggest that you present some of the stuff that really bothered you about atheism for discussion. You are getting a very one-sided version that in a lot of cases is misleading and in some places is just a lie.
I don't care if you convert from atheist, just don't do it based on bad data.
Why would having morals be completely ridiculous?rosey wrote:I realized, if everything that is, turns to nothing when it no longer is, and it is therefore as if it never existed, and eventually everything passes away, I realized having morals was completely ridiculous.
Because not living by rules prevents you from living the way you want to.rosey wrote:You get one life. Spend it however you want to. Why live by rules if you only get a relatively short time on earth before you just drop dead and are forgotten?
Which is why following the rules is in your best interest. Your motive for not following your rules is also the motive for following rules. This might be why you went all Nihilistic, you were following a circular train of thought and perhaps didn't notice.rosey wrote:But of course a world where everyone does what they feel like doing is going to get out of hand fast.
Realize is probably the wrong word to use here. Morals are necessary for maintaining a stable civilization/society, they are not just necessary.rosey wrote:I then started to realize that morals were necessary, and not just objective morals, but absolute.
What about in the animal kingdom, rape plays a large role in the actual success of many species. Without rape, those species could die out all together.rosey wrote:Rape will always be wrong.
This is sounding more relative than absolute. Women don't want to be raped, therefore rape is wrong. Relative morality for sure.rosey wrote:Sane women today don't want to be raped, sane women yesterday didn't want to be raped, and sane women tomorrow won't want to be raped.
You might want to support this claim.rosey wrote:However, absolute morals require a moral "setter", if you will.
Sorry if it sounds rude but I don't see the rationale in this at all.rosey wrote:Thus I was able to rationally reach God, along with a great amount of reading and listening.
I don't follow the logic here.rosey wrote:What really bothered me about Atheism? Well, it was mainly the idea that nothing matters. I realized, if everything that is, turns to nothing when it no longer is, and it is therefore as if it never existed, and eventually everything passes away, I realized having morals was completely ridiculous.Quath wrote: My grandmother send that book to me when she found out I was an atheist. She also sent the Case for Christ, New Evidence that Demands a Verdict and the Left Behind series.
After reading them, I went from an apathetic atheist to an activist atheist. I could not believe the lies, deceptions, horrible mangled logic and the assault on reason promoted by these books. They are really bad.
I would suggest that you present some of the stuff that really bothered you about atheism for discussion. You are getting a very one-sided version that in a lot of cases is misleading and in some places is just a lie.
I don't care if you convert from atheist, just don't do it based on bad data.
Why? Because we are all a part of human society and rules keep the wheels of society greased and everybody on track.You get one life. Spend it however you want to. Why live by rules if you only get a relatively short time on earth before you just drop dead and are forgotten?
Morals are not absolute.But of course a world where everyone does what they feel like doing is going to get out of hand fast. I then started to realize that morals were necessary, and not just objective morals, but absolute. Rape will always be wrong. Sane women today don't want to be raped, sane women yesterday didn't want to be raped, and sane women tomorrow won't want to be raped. However, absolute morals require a moral "setter", if you will. Thus I was able to rationally reach God, along with a great amount of reading and listening.
That sounds like something that you want to be true, not something that is true. While it is a very keen idea that morality could be as simple as black and white, in the real world, every situation is different and requires actual thought, not blind allegiance to a doctrine. Morality is necessary for the existence of any society, however, you haven't adequately explained why empathy and shared experience aren't enough for us to come up with decent laws.I then started to realize that morals were necessary, and not just objective morals, but absolute.
The god of the Bible isn't even anti-rape. The Bible say that if a woman is raped in the city, she should be stoned to death because she didn't yell for help loud enough (Deuteronomy 22:23-24). Your "absolute moral setter" seems to have set some pretty crappy morals. Rape is wrong, but we don't need some book to tell us that. In spite of what the Bible says, Christians now know that slavery is wrong, that women aren't inferior and that unruly children don't deserve to be put to death. That is the success of secular morality.Rape will always be wrong. Sane women today don't want to be raped, sane women yesterday didn't want to be raped, and sane women tomorrow won't want to be raped. However, absolute morals require a moral "setter", if you will. Thus I was able to rationally reach God, along with a great amount of reading and listening.
The facts it presents are de facto nonsense and you are not knowledgeable enough to know the difference.rosey wrote: I am confident that the only way I could have rejected what this book says is by living in complete denial of the facts it presents...
When I read this post, i couldn't help laughing. Talk about a legend in your own mind.Serpent Oracle wrote:The facts it presents are de facto nonsense and you are not knowledgeable enough to know the difference.rosey wrote: I am confident that the only way I could have rejected what this book says is by living in complete denial of the facts it presents...
Please cite for me any one line of reasoning derived of 'facts' from your 'book' and I will show you how it is mindless garbage.
That is the strength of my 'faith' in atheism...I have not read your book...but I KNOW I can refute every sentence and paragraph with ease...simply post a single paragraph of your choice, as I have said...and I will demonstrate your mistake.
With total lucidity and clarity.
PS No offence intended, my total and utter hatred for Christianity does not extend to you, but I am 100% serious...and a bit bored.
See, my servant will act wisely[a];
he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.
14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him—
his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being
and his form marred beyond human likeness —
15 so he will sprinkle many nations,[c]
and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
For what they were not told, they will see,
and what they have not heard, they will understand.
53 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression[d] and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.[e]
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes[f] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life[g] and be satisfied[h];
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[j]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[k]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
Isaiah 52:13 - 53:12
I don't believe that morality is not absolute, I know it isn't.rosey wrote: On another note, Serpent, if I don't like your response can I come over to your house and eat you? After all you are one who believes: "that there are no moral absolutes, that what is "right" and what is "wrong" is entirely in the eye of the beholder."
aren't you?
I could not care less what you think or how much you laugh, you are nothing to me.rosey wrote: When I read this post, i couldn't help laughing. Talk about a legend in your own mind.
rosey wrote: I can't quote it word for word, but this was one of their arguments I found intriguing.
See, my servant will act wisely[a];
he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.
14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him—
his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being
and his form marred beyond human likeness —
15 so he will sprinkle many nations,[c]
and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
For what they were not told, they will see,
and what they have not heard, they will understand.
53 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression[d] and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.[e]
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes[f] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life[g] and be satisfied[h];
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[j]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[k]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
Isaiah 52:13 - 53:12
They ask, "To whom is this speaking of?" I believe the traditional non-Christian argument is that it is referencing the nation of Israel, not the Christ.
Please point out some point in history where Israel went "like a lamb to the slaughter" willingly. The Israelites were extremely arrogant. They crushed all opposing nations. Please show how that this prophesy is speaking of the nation of Israel.