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JoeyKnothead
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 4:01 pm  Jews as a Race? Reply with quote

I know I'm gonna sound racist here, that is most certainly NOT my intent, but dangitall I can't put this together in a better fashion...

In another thread I see that Jewish folks don't consider themselves a race. As Judaism is a theology / philosophy, it may include folks as diverse as humanity itself, on that there can be no argument.

What I wonder though, is the deal where a person born to a Jewish mother is considered Jewish. Doesn't this imply a race?

I realize Wikipedia is not the be all and end all here, but I searched it for "Jewish Race" specifically, and was redirected to...
Wikipedia: Jews wrote:

The Jews (Hebrew: יְהוּדִים‎ "Yehudim" IPA: jɛhuːdiːm), also known as the Jewish people, are a nation and ethnoreligious group originating in the Israelites or Hebrews of the Ancient Near East. The Jewish ethnicity, nationality, and religion are strongly interrelated, as Judaism is the traditional faith of the Jewish nation.[6][7][8] Converts to Judaism, whose status as Jews within the Jewish ethnos is equal to those born into it, have been absorbed into the Jewish people throughout the millennia.

Doesn't "ethnoreligious" indicate such as "Some Jews are of a race", while leaving open the fact that some Jewish members are of other races?

I swear I don't mean to be insulting, but I think of some of the physical stereotypes ('characters' in biology speak), and let's be real, there is some small inkling that we could identify a person as "jewish" (small 'j' to remove religion/philosophy) by some of these physical stereotypes (agreeing that it's not 100% accurate or even close to it). Is this where we differentiate between Jew, and Hebrew? I really don't know, so please don't hate on me.

Is there a particular issue with considering at least some Jews as being of a Jewish race - especially where there is no nefarious intent?

Again, I'm sorry if I come across as racist, and hopefully this discussion can be enlightening to myself and others.
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 51: Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:12 am
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 52: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:40 am
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ThatGirlAgain wrote:

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This thread has gone deep into debate territory in what is supposed to be a discussion forum. Would the participants like this to be moved to a debate forum? Or would you like to bring it back down to discussion level?

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I speak for myself only, but I do think this discussion should be moved to a debate forum. Thanks for asking!

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 53: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:04 am
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ThatGirlAgain wrote:

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I speak for the truth and i don't see any reason why we should not continue the discussion on this thread.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 54: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:16 am
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faroukfarouk wrote:

ThatGirlAgain wrote:

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This thread has gone deep into debate territory in what is supposed to be a discussion forum. Would the participants like this to be moved to a debate forum? Or would you like to bring it back down to discussion level?

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I speak for the truth and i don't see any reason why we should not continue the discussion on this thread.


I'd like to see this "discussion" in a forum where Faroukfarouk will be obliged to DEFEND his claims that he "speaks for the truth." Note my response to his last below.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 55: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:18 am
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faroukfarouk wrote:

Greetings to all
Charles
So far as an apology is concerned, if any word that I used that caused you grief and pain or if I used a word that you regard as insulting you then you have my humble apology.

I am asking for clarification. Do you, or do you not, retract your accusations as detailed in earlier posts? Or do you still maintain that I have engaged in “uncivil, disrespectful and provoking behavior," "childish mudslinging," making threats, "twisting and mincing words," outright racism, and deception? An apology is quite literally meaningless if you do not make this clear.
Quote:

Note your question
Can a person's "race" be changed?

Yes or no?

You never asked for an explanation hence I answered your question with a yes answer with no explanation.

Fair enough, I suppose.
Quote:

But now that you ask for an explanation I will give you one.Now read carefully and ff what I am saying.The ff are just a few examples of how “Race” changes.

1.Megan Fox is part Irish, French, and Native American.
What was her Race?
What is her Race now?

Did her race change after her birth? If so, how was that done?
Quote:

2. Tyson Beckford is part Afro-Jamaican, Afro-Panamanian, and Chinese.
What was his Race?
What is his Race now?

Did his race change after his birth? If so, how was that done?
Quote:

3. Mica Shinoda is half Japanese, a quarter Native American, and a quarter White.
What was his Race?
What is his Race now?

Did his race change after his birth? If so, how was that done?
Quote:

4. Salma Hayek is half Hispanic and half Lebanese.
What was her Race?
What is her Race now?

Did her race change after her birth? If so, how was that done?

We’re not talking about mixed-race people here, or people of indeterminate race; we’re talking about people who CHANGE their race as an act of their own will. How does THAT happen?

Once again I note that you have NOT answered ANY of my questions, while continuing to demand that I keep answering yours with no end in sight.
Quote:

Now there is plenty more that I can add to the list.The bottom line is how you define the word “Race”.Race is not about your colour of your skin nor is it about how thick your skin is.Race has a very broad meaning and race changes over time.You don’t have to be a citizen of a particular country to become a member of a particular race.

Perhaps, instead of asking endless questions and answering none, you might deign to give us YOUR definition of “race.” You quoted some dictionary definitions, which I showed did NOT apply to Jews. So what do YOU think?
Quote:

Note I have never said Jews are a Race nor have I said Jews are not a Race.

Which brings us back to that same rather important matter. You have, in fact, answered NO questions on this thread, but only pretended to answer by asking more and more questions. If you do NOT say that Jews are a race, why do you object to my saying that? If you DO, why will you not give your reasons and evidence -- or at least your definition of “race”?

Coyly hiding behind what you seem to think are “clever” questions is not debate, nor is it even legitimate discussion. I don’t know what game you are playing here, but it’s neither of those.

Enough questions. Say what YOU mean.
Quote:

What I did say is in order to answer the question one has to answer questions like who a Jew is?Where did the word Jew come from?The meaning of the word Hebrew?Judaism,Talmud,Torah etc……If these answers are not answered in a honest and truthful manner then the question Are Jews a Race will hang in doubt.

And I have answered ALL your questions in an honest and truthful manner. If you think otherwise, present your evidence.
Quote:

Back to the subject.
Am I reading you correctly.
The word Judaism(Yahadut) does not appear in any of the Hebrew Scriptures or in the Talmud.Not a single mention of the oldest monotheistic religion in the World.There has to be an answer as to why no mention has been made.
No one invented “Judaism”.No one……Is that the truth?I have to read it 3 times because I cannot believe what I am reading.

Believe it; and yes, that is the TRUTH. See below
More Question
[/quote]
Imagine my surprise. I think it’s time YOU answered a few.
Quote:

1.Judaism as a religion does not appear in any of the Hebrew Scriptures or in the Talmud.
Why no mention of this religion?

Because the word did not exist till after the Hebrew Bible and the Talmud were written. That’s a simple enough answer; you won’t find ANY of the words I mentioned above, that refer to various religious denominations and sects, in the Bible either, and for the same reason.

Enough questions. Say what YOU mean.

You didn’t answer MY question; Do the words “Sunni” and “Shia” appear in the Koran? If not, why is THAT not a problem for you?
Quote:

2.What is the etymology of the word “Judaism”.

We’ve already dealt with that.

Enough questions. Say what YOU mean.
Quote:

3.You mention no one invented “Judaism”.Does the word “no one” includes God and his Prophets as well?
Sorry I have to ask you this question because I need to understand what you mean by “no one”.

Fair enough, again. My meaning is that no one person “invented” Judaism.

You speak as if some one person somewhere made it all up and wrote it all down at once. That never happened. Judaism is a body of tradition that has grown and changed over the course of centuries. It’s not a human “invention” like the light bulb or Moby Dick.

Enough questions. Say what YOU mean.
Quote:

4.Was Abraham a Jew?
If your answer is yes.Please provide with concrete proof.

I’ve answered that as well. He is traditionally called the first Jew, though the word in his case is an anachronism and refers to the fact that the Jewish religion began with him. The word “Jew” was not used until long after the fall of the Northern Kingdom.

Enough questions. Say what YOU mean.
Quote:

5.Wa Moses A Jew?
If your answer is yes.Please provide with concrete proof.

Again, the word is an anachronism in the case of Moses, and is not much used as a descriptor for him for that very reason. The proper word for Moses would be “Hebrew."

Enough questions. Say what YOU mean.
Quote:

Due to your anticipation and eagerness on the subject of the Talmud and its relation to the question of Are Jews a Race I have decided to mention it on the same thread.

6.What is the Talmud?
7.Who wrote the Talmud?
8.Are the teachings of the Talmud from any of the Prophets?If so please explain fully.

I asked YOU what YOUR views on the Talmud are. Asking me another string of questions does not constitute an answer to that.

I think I’ve answered enough of your questions. Let’s hear YOUR views on the Talmud and what YOU think it represents and teaches. I’m not here to jump through your hoops by answering endless streams of questions while you continue to hide and tease and drop hints, as if YOU are in possession of the Truth and I am a poor ignorant student of yours.

If you want to talk about these matters, it’s time that YOU took a turn.

Enough questions. Say what YOU mean.
Quote:

Once again I humbly apologize to any member of this forum if my questioning causes any pain or grief.My intent is the truth and the truth does hurt so please forgive.

Once again leaving two matters unclear:

Were your charges and accusations against me “the truth”?

Why do YOU have the authority to decide what “the truth” is?

It’s time YOU answered some other questions now:

Do YOU think that Jews are a race? If so, why?

How does a person’s “race” change during their lifetime and as a result of their own decisions, as opposed to being determined by their birth?

What is YOUR opinion of the Talmud? What do YOU think it teaches?

Why your enormous concern about Jews, anyway? What do you hope to prove here?

And, perhaps most important:

WHAT IS YOUR POINT in all this endless questioning?

WHAT IS YOUR POINT in answering NONE of my questions?

I will answer no more of yours TILL YOU ANSWER MINE; and once again, let’s start with this one: Do you stand by your accusations and personal attacks, or do you retract them? That is a totally fair, civil, reasonable and on-point question. If you continue to refuse to answer it -- WHY do you refuse to answer it? Can you at least give a reason for THAT?

Enough ducking and dodging and dancing around. If you want to discuss these matters, WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY? You haven't said ANYTHING up to this point, by your own admission. You claim to "speak for the truth." So when do you intend to start doing it?

If you don't actually have anything to SAY here, I see no point in continuing to answer your endless and apparently pointless questions.

(Note to ThatGirlAgain: I think all this belongs in a DEBATE forum. And I think the reason for that is obvious enough; Faroukfarouk keeps ASKING questions while ANSWERING none. That isn't debate -- but it isn't a "discussion" either.)

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 56: Sun Oct 07, 2012 4:48 pm
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Moderator Intervention

I'm thinking this has gotten a little bit too intense for a discussion subforum. I agree with ThatGirlAgain that this has long gone into debate territory. If Miss Rosemary stops by and disagrees with me, I hope she'll accept apologies and feel free to reopen the thread at her own discretion.

I'm locking the thread instead of moving it, because it was appropriately opened as a discussion thread. If the current participants want to resume this in a debate format, please feel free to open a new thread with debate questions in a debate subforum.


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