Morality of abortion

What would you do if?

Moderator: Moderators

Justin108
Banned
Banned
Posts: 4471
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:28 am

Morality of abortion

Post #1

Post by Justin108 »

Generally Atheists are more likely to be pro-choice than Christians. Atheists generally believe fetuses to not be human beings while Christians generally believe they are.

So Christians, what problem do you have with abortion if aborted "babies" get a free pass to heaven without having to be tested in life? Wouldn't giving them a life on earth make it possible for them to end up godless and sinful? Wouldn't we be doing them a favor by sending them directly to heaven?

So an Atheist who has an abortion saves these babies by sacrificing herself (since she will be going to hell supposedly anyway) and sending babies straight to heaven without them facing the temptation of a sinful life.

Dantalion
Guru
Posts: 1588
Joined: Mon May 28, 2012 3:37 pm

Post #2

Post by Dantalion »

Good topic, maybe post it in the more viewed apologetic subforum if you want to maximize the potential number of takers

User avatar
Moses Yoder
Guru
Posts: 2462
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:46 pm
Location: White Pigeon, Michigan

Post #3

Post by Moses Yoder »

According to the Bible, murdering a person is wrong. I don't really know of any reason why this would be true except that God says it is wrong.
Matthew 16:26
New King James Version (NKJV)
26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?

Mr. LongView

hi...

Post #4

Post by Mr. LongView »

Generally, this atheist kinda gets that a fetus is mostly a rough draft of a human...

Additionally, most of the math in this OP smells like it may have spoiled?
:?
In my experience, most atheist are a bit more nuanced than a black or white take on this issue.

Personally, I am not pro abortion, so I guess I am not "generally" a good atheist.

User avatar
Goat
Site Supporter
Posts: 24978
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:09 pm
Has thanked: 19 times
Been thanked: 186 times

Post #5

Post by Goat »

Moses Yoder wrote: According to the Bible, murdering a person is wrong. I don't really know of any reason why this would be true except that God says it is wrong.
But, according to the bible, you don't come a person until you get the 'breath of life'.. in other words you are breathing on your own.

And, due to the high infant mortality of the time period, the value of an infant that isn't even a month old is much less than one that is older.

Genesis 2:7, He “breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and it was then that the man became a living being�.

Ezekiel 37:5&6, “Thus says the Lord God to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live. And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live; and you shall know that I am the Lord.�


also check out Exodus 21:22
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

User avatar
Choakem
Newbie
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:09 pm
Location: Ireland

Post #6

Post by Choakem »

Interesting question but based on a false assumption.

Babies do NOT go to heaven. Entrance into heaven is not based on morality of good or bad but simply in accepting in Jesus and asking for forgiveness.

Rapists, Pedophiles, murderers etc can all go to Heaven. The method in which one gets passage into Heaven is greatly misunderstood. It is the modern day doctrine that has lead to this misunderstanding but if your assumption were true and all babies did indeed go to heaven and if I was a believer in the Catholic faith then absolutely it would by a moral obligation of mine to kill my kids before they could commit sin and then repent and join them in Heaven.

It is the obligation of every good parent to what is best for their children.

Kill them.....

The choice is simple... Free Pass in to Heaven vs the possibility of an Eternity in hell is a no brain er.

wannabe
Student
Posts: 99
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2015 4:01 am
Location: Australia
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Morality of abortion

Post #7

Post by wannabe »

[Replying to post 1 by Justin108]

You should know that it is actually a blessing to be born as an entity, to be able to understand self worth, to have self recognition on a higher level, and to know that you alone , (besides the fact of your creator), are the only reason for your now existence (and towards heaven).

An entity as a result of being an aborted fetus is deprived of such recognitions, and it would be as if God did not separate the evil from their lives , thus creating someone as just good. This is a nice thought for the sake of creation, but not God's plan. Because without the recognition of the existence of evil, how does one understand evil.
It's like how do you know not to do something dangerous, disrespectful or evil.
Evil needs to be recognized to create a balance , instead of a mix. Fetuses would be like deaf ,dumb and blind. But still entities of worth.(everything always exists, just in changing different forms).

All entities are precious to God, and as sad as God might be that we don't all pass his gift of acknowledgement on to ourselves in a way that is acceptable to earning everlasting life, God's gift is still a precious Commodity.
It's not our bodies with all our attributes that is the total gift of God , but also the ability to understand from our experiences.
When we go to school we graduate.
when we come to earth , we get heaven as a reward.
So to the few who are deaf and blind , this is sad.
But because some abortionist don't actually see this , does not make it so.

However the abortionist can rest assured that God will take care of the poor as well as the rich. However, I can't see God being too happy about murder. (With the understanding that not all abortions are willed).

Once created - You exist - One sperm, One egg, One entity of worth.
ask yourself , " where did I begin ?" (When you first understood language? ).

puddleglum
Sage
Posts: 685
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2009 12:35 pm
Contact:

Post #8

Post by puddleglum »

[Replying to post 5 by Goat]
But, according to the bible, you don't come a person until you get the 'breath of life'.. in other words you are breathing on your own.

Genesis 2:7, He “breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and it was then that the man became a living being�.
Adam became a living being when God breathed the breath of life into him but he passed that life on to his descendant. There are at least two places in the Bible where children still in their mother's womb were shown to already be living beings.

And Isaac prayed to the LORD for his wife, because she was barren. And the LORD granted his prayer, and Rebekah his wife conceived. The children struggled together within her, and she said, “If it is thus, why is this happening to me?� So she went to inquire of the LORD.
(Genesis 25:21-22 ESV)


And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit, and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For behold, when the sound of your greeting came to my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy.
(Luke 1:41-44 ESV)


Regarding the question of why abortion if wrong if the aborted babies go to Heaven, right and wrong are determined by God's commands. He has forbidden murder. The fact that he brings good out of a sinful act doesn't make it any less a sin.
His invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made.
Romans 1:20 ESV

User avatar
ttruscott
Site Supporter
Posts: 11067
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:09 pm
Location: West Coast of Canada
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Morality of abortion

Post #9

Post by ttruscott »

Justin108 wrote: Generally Atheists are more likely to be pro-choice than Christians. Atheists generally believe fetuses to not be human beings while Christians generally believe they are.

So Christians, what problem do you have with abortion if aborted "babies" get a free pass to heaven without having to be tested in life? Wouldn't giving them a life on earth make it possible for them to end up godless and sinful? Wouldn't we be doing them a favor by sending them directly to heaven?

So an Atheist who has an abortion saves these babies by sacrificing herself (since she will be going to hell supposedly anyway) and sending babies straight to heaven without them facing the temptation of a sinful life.
The moral fallacy of this idea is the reason that many many Christians reject the idea that children are innocent and go to heaven automatically on death. Scripture tells us HE wants all to be saved but why then does HE not kill us all just after birth if it was a legitimate way of saving people??? The doctrine of innocent babies going to heaven on death is flawed. That some of the people HE does not save this way end in hell proves the idea has no merit.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

User avatar
Ancient of Years
Guru
Posts: 1070
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:30 am
Location: In the forests of the night

Re: Morality of abortion

Post #10

Post by Ancient of Years »

ttruscott wrote:
Justin108 wrote: Generally Atheists are more likely to be pro-choice than Christians. Atheists generally believe fetuses to not be human beings while Christians generally believe they are.

So Christians, what problem do you have with abortion if aborted "babies" get a free pass to heaven without having to be tested in life? Wouldn't giving them a life on earth make it possible for them to end up godless and sinful? Wouldn't we be doing them a favor by sending them directly to heaven?

So an Atheist who has an abortion saves these babies by sacrificing herself (since she will be going to hell supposedly anyway) and sending babies straight to heaven without them facing the temptation of a sinful life.
The moral fallacy of this idea is the reason that many many Christians reject the idea that children are innocent and go to heaven automatically on death. Scripture tells us HE wants all to be saved but why then does HE not kill us all just after birth if it was a legitimate way of saving people??? The doctrine of innocent babies going to heaven on death is flawed. That some of the people HE does not save this way end in hell proves the idea has no merit.
The Catholic viewpoint is that no one knows for sure what happens to the souls of unbaptized infants (including fetuses). Opinions ranged from them going to hell to going to heaven. The traditional but non-dogmatic teaching of the church is that they go to Limbo, a place of happiness that is nonetheless not heaven. But officially the church is silent on the matter.

Concerning other forms of Christianity, I am not aware of any that claim that unbaptized infants, including the unborn, go to heaven. If anyone knows of one and can document it, please do so. Thank you.
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wild Flower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

William Blake

Post Reply