The Book of Mormon Joseph Smith and/or Moroni et. al.

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sleepyhead
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The Book of Mormon Joseph Smith and/or Moroni et. al.

Post #1

Post by sleepyhead »

Hello,

In order to be involved in this discussion/debate you must register here:
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/g ... php?g=7076

I am the group owner (so much power for one person to have). I was active LDS for about a year, inactive for a few years and presently an inactive member of the Chruch of Christ (temple lot). My posts will largely delve into certain moral teachings of the book. If others want to go through the book chapter by chapter or to only discuss the book of Ether that's also ok.
May all your naps be joyous occasions.

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The Ex-Mormon
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Post #21

Post by The Ex-Mormon »

sleepyhead wrote: When I first began this thread it was meant to be a discussion of topics from the book of mormon. It wasn't meant as a discussion of whether the book is true or false, whether any particular sect of Mormonsim is bad, or whether those who leave any particular sect are adulterers. You have expressed an interest in 3rd Nephi. I think that's the part that describes 3 full days of darkness which naturally correspond to the possibility that Jesus spent 3 full days in the tomb instead of just a weekend. Anyway if you would like to discuss 3 Nephi I'm open to it.
The 3. Nephi proves that the BoM was a fraud. There is no evidence for a visit of Jesus in ancient America.

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Post #22

Post by sleepyhead »

Hello passenger,

Hello sleepyhead,

>>> Ok - first I will read 3 Nephi completely and then I will post here again. <<<

I will also read it.

>>>But in the mean time there would be one question concerning 1 Nephi Chapter 4, where Nephi slayed Laban at the Lord's command to secure the plates. There is one problem for me: it's the same with Abraham who intended to slay (you can say to murder) his son as God commanded to him. Well, wasn't it God who revealed His commandments to mankind? One is that you shalt not kill (murder). If God commanded me to kill, I would refuse this command, and I would say to God: I will not act against your law. What would you think about my point of view?

In chapter 4:18 Nephi told that he obeyed the voice of the Spirit and killed him in the way he described. Well, this is my problem: How can the Spirit of God command such kind of a murder (and in America you would even call it a murder in the first degree). It wasn't necessary to kill Laban, because Nephi had already got the plates and Laban was unconcious. At that moment there came no danger from Laban. So the BoM starts with an event that I would describe as a misdeed that was against one of the the commandments of God. It's a dilemma for me.<<<

I don't really want to convince you one way or the other with regards to the historicity of the BOM. I don't think this should be an issue with regards to not believing because people get revelations (sometimes conflicting) all the time. Going with the account as given, it's not surprising to me that Nephi would receive a revelation to kill Laban after Laban trying to have them killed. For me, the weird point was with the angel appearing and telling them that the name of the messiah would be Christ when in actuality Christ is a title.
May all your naps be joyous occasions.

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Post #23

Post by Passenger »

@ sleepyhead

>>> For me, the weird point was with the angel appearing and telling them that the name of the messiah would be Christ when in actuality Christ is a title.<<<

In which chapter can I find this text passage exactly?

>>>Going with the account as given, it's not surprising to me that Nephi would receive a revelation to kill Laban after Laban trying to have them killed.<<<

But isn't God full of mercy and forgiveness? Was it really necessary to murder Laban? And why should God command someone to violance one of His most important commandments once revealed to mankind? Was it really the spirit of God speaking to Nephi shortly before that moment of his misdeed? Or wasn't it another spirit... the spirit of evil...? Because what Nephi did was not what a Christian should do.

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Post #24

Post by sleepyhead »

Passenger wrote: But isn't God full of mercy and forgiveness? Was it really necessary to murder Laban? And why should God command someone to violance one of His most important commandments once revealed to mankind? Was it really the spirit of God speaking to Nephi shortly before that moment of his misdeed? Or wasn't it another spirit... the spirit of evil...? Because what Nephi did was not what a Christian should do.
I agree. I misunderstood the point you were making before. I agree it wasn't God. With regards to the requested verse it is 2 nephi 10:3 in the LDS numbering system.

"2 Nephi 10:1": 1 And now I, Jacob, speak unto you again, my beloved brethren, concerning this
righteous branch of which I have spoken.
"2 Nephi 10:2": 2 For behold, the promises which we have obtained are promises unto us according to
the flesh; wherefore, as it has been shown unto me that many of our children shall perish in the flesh
because of unbelief, nevertheless, God will be merciful unto many; and our children shall be restored,
that they may come to that which will give them the true knowledge of their Redeemer.
"2 Nephi 10:3": 3 Wherefore, as I said unto you, it must needs be expedient that Christ -- for in the last
night the angel spake unto me that this should be his name -- should come among the Jews, among those
who are the more wicked part of the world; and they shall crucify him -- for thus it behooveth our God,
and there is none other nation on earth that would crucify their God.
"2 Nephi 10:4": 4 For should the mighty miracles be wrought among other nations they would repent,
and know that he be their God.
"2 Nephi 10:5": 5 But because of priestcrafts and iniquities, they at Jerusalem will stiffen their necks
against him, that he be crucified.
"2 Nephi 10:6": 6 Wherefore, because of their iniquities, destructions, famines, pestilences, and
bloodshed shall come upon them; and they who shall not be destroyed shall be scattered among all
nations.
"2 Nephi 10:7": 7 But behold, thus saith the Lord God: When the day cometh that they shall believe in
me, that I am Christ, then have I covenanted with their fathers that they shall be restored in the flesh,
upon the earth, unto the lands of their inheritance.
May all your naps be joyous occasions.

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Post #25

Post by Passenger »

Morning, sleepyhead. >>> I agree. I misunderstood the point you were making before. I agree it wasn't God. With regards to the requested verse it is 2 nephi 10:3 in the LDS numbering system.<<<

>>>2 Nephi 10:3": 3 Wherefore, as I said unto you, it must needs be expedient that Christ -- for in the last
night the angel spake unto me that this should be his name -- should come among the Jews, among those
who are the more wicked part of the world; and they shall crucify him -- for thus it behooveth our God,
and there is none other nation on earth that would crucify their God.<<<

ok - I've read it in the German translation / edition of the BoM. Well, you are right, "Christ" (Greek) is a title and not a name. Like "Messias", which is Hebrew and means "the anointed". On the other hand we say "Jesus Christ" and this makes the title more a name. Perhaps this was what Jakob was revealed by the angel: that "Christ" was his name, because he (Jesus) was the only one, the only Messias, and not only one Messias. This is how I would understand it. What would you think about this statement? I don't want to make anything right what might be wrong... but "Christ" or "Christus" (German) means the same like Jesus in my understanding.

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Post #26

Post by The Ex-Mormon »

I had never understood this quotation from the BoM. How can a loving God order a man to kill another person? A "test of faith"? Justification for murder? "God let me do this"?
Another problem with the BoM is, that Christ is mentioned although he wasn't born at that time. A "Church of Christ" a couple years before he was born?

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Post #27

Post by Passenger »

The Ex-Mormon wrote: I had never understood this quotation from the BoM. How can a loving God order a man to kill another person? A "test of faith"? Justification for murder? "God let me do this"?
Another problem with the BoM is, that Christ is mentioned although he wasn't born at that time. A "Church of Christ" a couple years before he was born?

Regards to Berlin / Potsdam. I surely know who you are, "Karate Kid" (was your nick there in Gerlinde's forum) The way you don't know Karate is the same you don't know how to hide your real intention here in this forum's thread. You are full of poorness, and try to improve your English (especially the tenses). You're wondering about things you even wouldn't understand even if you tried. No words more for a man who isn't worth it and who pretends to be a woman.

Glaubst du wirklich, daß du solch ein guter Schauspieler bist? Deine vorherige, ziemlich lange Nachricht war in gutem Englisch geschrieben, die letzten Nachrichten hingegen in schlechtem. Hast du einen "ghost writer"? Deine Intention ist gänzlich offensichtlich. Was bist du nur für ein armseliger Kerl!

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Post #28

Post by The Ex-Mormon »

Passenger wrote:
Regards to Berlin / Potsdam. I surely know who you are, "Karate Kid" (was your nick there in Gerlinde's forum) The way you don't know Karate is the same you don't know how to hide your real intention here in this forum's thread. You are full of poorness, and try to improve your English (especially the tenses). You're wondering about things you even wouldn't understand even if you tried. No words more for a man who isn't worth it and who pretends to be a woman.


Karate Kid? I know the movie, but what has this to do with me? I still live in Berne and only was in Berlin for some days. Therefore I have changed my local place. I am in Berne and not in Berlin now again.
Do you have a problem with me? I do not know you; and I do not want to meet you either. For me you are a quarrel searching Mormon which spreads lies here. Not only about me but also about the LDS.
Why the assertion that I would be a man? This is ridiculous! I am a woman and was always a woman. My children can testify this. Or do you think I have bought them at Migros (department store)?
Passenger wrote:
Glaubst du wirklich, daß du solch ein guter Schauspieler bist? Deine vorherige, ziemlich lange Nachricht war in gutem Englisch geschrieben, die letzten Nachrichten hingegen in schlechtem. Hast du einen "ghost writer"? Deine Intention ist gänzlich offensichtlich. Was bist du nur für ein armseliger Kerl!


The language in this forum is still English.

@everyone,

Passenger has written in German to me:

Did you still believe, that you are such a good actor "? Your previous, rather long posting was written in good English; the latest post however in bad English. Do you have a "ghost writer"? Your intention is completely obvious. What kind of miserable guy you only are "

I feel this as offending and ask the mods to carry out the necessary actions.

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Post #29

Post by Passenger »

@ The Ex-Mormon:

>>>I feel this as offending and ask the mods to carry out the necessary actions.<<<

Not the mods can help you but only a psychiatrist. Take your medicin.

By the way, who is the offender...? Remember your own words:

post # 13: >>>In this case the LDS, which stands for : Lying / Denying, and / Stubbornness / And your nickname covered; (..) <<<

quote: >>>Do you have a problem with me? I do not know you; and I do not want to meet you either. For me you are a quarrel searching Mormon which spreads lies here. Not only about me but also about the LDS.<<<

I wouldn't call it a problem; it's a too big word concerning that little person you are. Spreading lies here about you and the Latter-day saints? Where are the lies...?

>>> I still live in Berne and only was in Berlin for some days. Therefore I have changed my local place. ... <<<

Sure. And I hope you didn't forget to say "hello" to Gerlinde... or "Hermione" in these forums here.

Your only intention is aspersing the LDS systematically and damaging the reputation of Mormons because of your own shipwrecking and lost of faith.
Last edited by Passenger on Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post #30

Post by Passenger »

The Ex-Mormon wrote:

>>>The 3. Nephi proves that the BoM was a fraud. There is no evidence for a visit of Jesus in ancient America.<<<

And there is no evidence for your mental intactness. But you surely would insist on being mentally intact... even without giving any convincing proof here.

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