Newby asking for opinions.

[Columbus]

I've recently joined DC&R. I joined the Agnostic and Christian user groups. While I'm quite sure that many, if not most, self-described Christians wouldn't think I am a Christian, I'm curious about the opinions of my esteemed fellow DC&R members.

I find it impossible to believe in the Image of God presented to me by traditional Christianity. It's not that I don't want to, my life would be more convenient if I did. I live in an overwhelmingly christian community. I could interact with most people around here more smoothly if I could honestly recite the Nicene Creed, or claim Jesus as my Personal Saviour. I just can't do that, not with integrity. So I just avoid talking about theology with Christians I don't know really well, or people I know well enough to know we must agree to disagree. I have no problem getting along with most people.

"Jesus is my Hero" is why I describe myself(sometimes) as a Christian. I find a great deal of inspiration in His Message. I wouldn't care if Jesus were proven to be a fictional character, or never to have said what He is quoted as saying in the New Testament. He would still be the dominant inspiration in my life. Had I been born into a Hindu or Muslim culture this would likely not be the case. Maybe I just know more about Christianity and the "Jesus Challenge". It's all the challenge I need in my life.

Salut!
Tom

[Sender]

The way to heaven is the same for everyone. I can tell you the how to and whatever, but it needs to be in your soul, your whole being.

This goes for all of us, if you acknowledge to God you are a sinner, confess those sins with a truly repentant heart, ask God to forgive you of your sins, and acknowledge Jesus is the Son of God, whom God raised from the dead, and you ask Jesus to come into your heart to be your Lord and Savior, according to Him you are saved.

He also wants you to be baptised, and a daily walk with Him would be to read his word, pray daily and just begin to have a personal relationship with Him, you are saved.

Have you done this? If so, you are in the big dance, if not, then you aren't.

None of us can answer that for you. It always will come down to a broken a contrite heart, and a one on one relationship with Jesus. ALWAYS.

The key of course is are you truly remorseful and serious about relating to Jesus the rest of your life.

It doesn't have anything to do with being a good person. What I mean is certainly we can know those (Christian) by their fruit...love, joy, peace, gentleness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, temperance, and long suffering, against such there is no law the Bible says, Galatians, can't remember the specific verse, perhaps 5:22,23.

Anyways, good people is not a ticket to heaven, your allegiance to Christ is.

Unfortunately there will be many a good folk that won't be in heaven.

Salvation comes through the Cross, if being good people will get you to heaven, the Bible says Christ died in vain.

If you would like to talk more you can PM me if you feel comfortable, whatever you like.

[Rob]

Hi Tom,

Welcome. I was moved by your post.

I find it impossible to believe in the Image of God presented to me by traditional Christianity.

Me too. I would be interested in why this is so for you?

"Jesus is my Hero" is why I describe myself(sometimes) as a Christian. I find a great deal of inspiration in His Message.

Me too. I would love to know what it is that you find inspirational?

I wouldn't care if Jesus were proven to be a fictional character, or never to have said what He is quoted as saying in the New Testament. He would still be the dominant inspiration in my life.

What part's of his life have been the "dominant inspiration" in your life?

A couple of my favorite stories that moved me deeply are:

Though Simon was not a member of the Jewish Sanhedrin, he was an influential Pharisee of Jerusalem. He was a half-hearted believer, and notwithstanding that he might be severely criticized therefor, he dared to invite Jesus and his personal associates, Peter, James, and John, to his home for a social meal. Simon had long observed the Master and was much impressed with his teachings and even more so with his personality.

The wealthy Pharisees were devoted to almsgiving, and they did not shun publicity regarding their philanthropy. Sometimes they would even blow a trumpet as they were about to bestow charity upon some beggar. It was the custom of these Pharisees, when they provided a banquet for distinguished guests, to leave the doors of the house open so that even the street beggars might come in and, standing around the walls of the room behind the couches of the diners, be in position to receive portions of food which might be tossed to them by the banqueters.

On this particular occasion at Simon's house, among those who came in off the street was a woman of unsavory reputation who had recently become a believer in the good news of the gospel of the kingdom. This woman was well known throughout all Jerusalem as the former keeper of one of the so-called high-class brothels located hard by the temple court of the gentiles. She had, on accepting the teachings of Jesus, closed up her nefarious place of business and had induced the majority of the women associated with her to accept the gospel and change their mode of living; notwithstanding this, she was still held in great disdain by the Pharisees and was compelled to wear her hair down--the badge of harlotry. This unnamed woman had brought with her a large flask of perfumed anointing lotion and, standing behind Jesus as he reclined at meat, began to anoint his feet while she also wet his feet with her tears of gratitude, wiping them with the hair of her head. And when she had finished this anointing, she continued weeping and kissing his feet.

When Simon saw all this, he said to himself: "This man, if he were a prophet, would have perceived who and what manner of woman this is who thus touches him; that she is a notorious sinner." And Jesus, knowing what was going on in Simon's mind, spoke up, saying: "Simon, I have something which I would like to say to you." Simon answered, "Teacher, say on." Then said Jesus: "A certain wealthy moneylender had two debtors. The one owed him five hundred denarii and the other fifty. Now, when neither of them had wherewith to pay, he forgave them both. Which of them do you think, Simon, would love him most?" Simon answered, "He, I suppose, whom he forgave the most." And Jesus said, "You have rightly judged," and pointing to the woman, he continued: "Simon, take a good look at this woman. I entered your house as an invited guest, yet you gave me no water for my feet. This grateful woman has washed my feet with tears and wiped them with the hair of her head. You gave me no kiss of friendly greeting, but this woman, ever since she came in, has not ceased to kiss my feet. My head with oil you neglected to anoint, but she has anointed my feet with precious lotions. And what is the meaning of all this? Simply that her many sins have been forgiven, and this has led her to love much. But those who have received but little forgiveness sometimes love but little." And turning around toward the woman, he took her by the hand and, lifting her up, said: "You have indeed repented of your sins, and they are forgiven. Be not discouraged by the thoughtless and unkind attitude of your fellows; go on in the joy and liberty of the kingdom of heaven."

When Simon and his friends who sat at meat with him heard these words, they were the more astonished, and they began to whisper among themselves, "Who is this man that he even dares to forgive sins?" And when Jesus heard them thus murmuring, he turned to dismiss the woman, saying, "Woman, go in peace; your faith has saved you."

As Jesus arose with his friends to leave, he turned to Simon and said: "I know your heart, Simon, how you are torn betwixt faith and doubts, how you are distraught by fear and troubled by pride; but I pray for you that you may yield to the light and may experience in your station in life just such mighty transformations of mind and spirit as may be comparable to the tremendous changes which the gospel of the kingdom has already wrought in the heart of your unbidden and unwelcome guest. And I declare to all of you that the Father has opened the doors of the heavenly kingdom to all who have the faith to enter, and no man or association of men can close those doors even to the most humble soul or supposedly most flagrant sinner on earth if such sincerely seek an entrance." And Jesus, with Peter, James, and John, took leave of their host and went to join the rest of the apostles at the camp in the garden of Gethsemane.

That same evening Jesus made the long-to-be-remembered address to the apostles regarding the relative value of status with God and progress in the eternal ascent to Paradise. Said Jesus: "My children, if there exists a true and living connection between the child and the Father, the child is certain to progress continuously toward the Father's ideals. True, the child may at first make slow progress, but the progress is none the less sure. The important thing is not the rapidity of your progress but rather its certainty. Your actual achievement is not so important as the fact that the direction of your progress is Godward. What you are becoming day by day is of infinitely more importance than what you are today.

"This transformed woman whom some of you saw at Simon's house today is, at this moment, living on a level which is vastly below that of Simon and his well-meaning associates; but while these Pharisees are occupied with the false progress of the illusion of traversing deceptive circles of meaningless ceremonial services, this woman has, in dead earnest, started out on the long and eventful search for God, and her path toward heaven is not blocked by spiritual pride and moral self-satisfaction. The woman is, humanly speaking, much farther away from God than Simon, but her soul is in progressive motion; she is on the way toward an eternal goal. There are present in this woman tremendous spiritual possibilities for the future. Some of you may not stand high in actual levels of soul and spirit, but you are making daily progress on the living way opened up, through faith, to God. There are tremendous possibilities in each of you for the future. Better by far to have a small but living and growing faith than to be possessed of a great intellect with its dead stores of worldly wisdom and spiritual unbelief."

But Jesus earnestly warned his apostles against the foolishness of the child of God who presumes upon the Father's love. He declared that the heavenly Father is not a lax, loose, or foolishly indulgent parent who is ever ready to condone sin and forgive recklessness. He cautioned his hearers not mistakenly to apply his illustrations of father and son so as to make it appear that God is like some overindulgent and unwise parents who conspire with the foolish of earth to encompass the moral undoing of their thoughtless children, and who are thereby certainly and directly contributing to the delinquency and early demoralization of their own offspring. Said Jesus: "My Father does not indulgently condone those acts and practices of his children which are self-destructive and suicidal to all moral growth and spiritual progress. Such sinful practices are an abomination in the sight of God."

Many other semiprivate meetings and banquets did Jesus attend with the high and the low, the rich and the poor, of Jerusalem before he and his apostles finally departed for Capernaum. And many, indeed, became believers in the gospel of the kingdom and were subsequently baptized by Abner and his associates, who remained behind to foster the interests of the kingdom in Jerusalem and thereabouts.

While the following story is not recorded in the Bible, I can imagine that Jesus would well be the kind and forgiving person portrayed in the following:

When in Rome, Ganid observed that Jesus refused to accompany them to the public baths. Several times afterward the young man sought to induce Jesus further to express himself in regard to the relations of the sexes. Though he would answer the lad's questions, he never seemed disposed to discuss these subjects at great length. One evening as they strolled about Corinth out near where the wall of the citadel ran down to the sea, they were accosted by two public women. Ganid had imbibed the idea, and rightly, that Jesus was a man of high ideals, and that he abhorred everything which partook of uncleanness or savored of evil; accordingly he spoke sharply to these women and rudely motioned them away. When Jesus saw this, he said to Ganid: "You mean well, but you should not presume thus to speak to the children of God, even though they chance to be his erring children. Who are we that we should sit in judgment on these women? Do you happen to know all of the circumstances which led them to resort to such methods of obtaining a livelihood? Stop here with me while we talk about these matters." The courtesans were astonished at what he said even more than was Ganid.

As they stood there in the moonlight, Jesus went on to say: "There lives within every human mind a divine spirit, the gift of the Father in heaven. This good spirit ever strives to lead us to God, to help us to find God and to know God; but also within mortals there are many natural physical tendencies which the Creator put there to serve the well-being of the individual and the race. Now, oftentimes, men and women become confused in their efforts to understand themselves and to grapple with the manifold difficulties of making a living in a world so largely dominated by selfishness and sin. I perceive, Ganid, that neither of these women is willfully wicked. I can tell by their faces that they have experienced much sorrow; they have suffered much at the hands of an apparently cruel fate; they have not intentionally chosen this sort of life; they have, in discouragement bordering on despair, surrendered to the pressure of the hour and accepted this distasteful means of obtaining a livelihood as the best way out of a situation that to them appeared hopeless. Ganid, some people are really wicked at heart; they deliberately choose to do mean things, but, tell me, as you look into these now tear-stained faces, do you see anything bad or wicked?" And as Jesus paused for his reply, Ganid's voice choked up as he stammered out his answer: "No, Teacher, I do not. And I apologize for my rudeness to them--I crave their forgiveness." Then said Jesus: "And I bespeak for them that they have forgiven you as I speak for my Father in heaven that he has forgiven them. Now all of you come with me to a friend's house where we will seek refreshment and plan for the new and better life ahead." Up to this time the amazed women had not uttered a word; they looked at each other and silently followed as the men led the way.

Imagine the surprise of Justus' wife when, at this late hour, Jesus appeared with Ganid and these two strangers, saying: "You will forgive us for coming at this hour, but Ganid and I desire a bite to eat, and we would share it with these our new-found friends, who are also in need of nourishment; and besides all this, we come to you with the thought that you will be interested in counseling with us as to the best way to help these women get a new start in life. They can tell you their story, but I surmise they have had much trouble, and their very presence here in your house testifies how earnestly they crave to know good people, and how willingly they will embrace the opportunity to show all the world--and even the angels of heaven--what brave and noble women they can become."

When Martha, Justus' wife, had spread the food on the table, Jesus, taking unexpected leave of them, said: "As it is getting late, and since the young man's father will be awaiting us, we pray to be excused while we leave you here together--three women--the beloved children of the Most High. And I will pray for your spiritual guidance while you make plans for a new and better life on earth and eternal life in the great beyond."

Thus did Jesus and Ganid take leave of the women. So far the two courtesans had said nothing; likewise was Ganid speechless. And for a few moments so was Martha, but presently she rose to the occasion and did everything for these strangers that Jesus had hoped for. The elder of these two women died a short time thereafter, with bright hopes of eternal survival, and the younger woman worked at Justus' place of business and later became a lifelong member of the first Christian church in Corinth.

[c.o.c.]

This goes for all of us, if you acknowledge to God you are a sinner, confess those sins with a truly repentant heart, ask God to forgive you of your sins, and acknowledge Jesus is the Son of God, whom God raised from the dead, and you ask Jesus to come into your heart to be your Lord and Savior,

according to Him you are saved.

If you are going to try to evangilize someone that is not certain about God and salvation then do it with book chapter and verse, stop giving him this watered down example of salvation that you think is right.

Give him the bible to ponder, The gospel "For it is the power that saves" Roman 1:16
Unfortunately Tom you will get those who will quote there own method or someone elses method of salvation, but what does the good word say about Jesus and what does the word say about you?

First if we cannot come to some kind of understanding about Gods word then we have nothing to base our belief in, if there are people who profess to be Christians and cannot show through the inspired word how this happened then they are probably not Christians.

1. We must hear: Rom 10:17
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
NKJV Also Matthew 7:24-27
2. We must believe: Heb 11:5-6
6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
NKJV Also Mark 16:15, 16
3. We must repent:Acts 17:30-31
30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."
NKJV Also Acts 2:38; Luke 13:3

4. We must confess:Matt 10:32-34
"Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven.33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.
NKJV Also Acts 8:36

5. Be baptized:Acts 2:38
38 Then Peter said to them,"Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy SpiritNKJV Also Galatians 3:27; 1 Peter 3:21

6. Live faithfully unto death:Rev 2:10
10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
NKJV

No where in the N.T. Scripture Tom does it say to ask Jesus into your heart, this is not scriptural, and the person who says such things cannot give you a direct scripture for it.

Study the above information in the bible for yourself and let His word bring you to an understanding, if you really want to know how one is saved look at those passages that talk about salvation, please do not listen to people who quote themselves that is how denominationalism began and continues.

Please do not be discouraged with all these different ideas about salvation, the devil has many ways to mis-lead people. God has only one plan of redemption for man and it is right in the bible.