A Good God would not send a decent Atheist to hell.

[marketandchurch]

This was the post that got me banned on Christian Chat:

Then God doesn't care about the goodness and decency of an atheist, a buddhist, etc. And if that is the message you are telling me, then there is no point to being a good person. There is no point of fighting on behalf of the oppressed, as America did, in WWII. The only purpose of fighting the Japanese, and beating back the Nazi's should have been so that we could bring more people to christ...is that what your saying? Should America be sending food and aid to heathens in Haiti? Should America be helping out muslims in disaster relief fallowing a natural disaster, unless it is to bring them to Christ? Is a person's only value to you, there potential to become a convert? They have no humanity beyond that?

You have an old testament my_adonai, and you are to be as obsessed with its obsessions, as you are with the new testament's. And the Old Testament's preoccupation is fighting evil, championing the good, and making a more ethical existence, during this lifetime.

And unless you think Christians alone can make this lifetime a little better, a little less genocidal, with a little less starvation, a little less torture, etc, it is an unethical message to peddle, that a good God would demand goodness, unless one doesn't believe in his son. Then one's goodness is pointless. One might as well not care about not gossiping behind other people's back, destroying someone's dignity in public, sleeping with a coworker's wife, extorting an elderly couple that one was hired to help, raping a pre-pubcescent child, killing another human being because of their skin color, etc, etc, etc.

Apparently, I was challenging people's faith, and was just there to be anti-christian, in saying that a Good God would not send to hell decent people, simply because they do not believe in his Son. I got all sorts of less then appetizing replies, saying I'm screwed for eternity, if I don't accept Jesus. I feel that I am not alone, even within the Christian community, in thinking this as I've heard many catholic priests, and mainstream protestant pastors, while I was growing up, distancing themselves from such a belief. I don't know where people on this forum stand, but I'll put it up for debate:

• Topic of Debate: A Good God would not send to hell a decent person, simply for not believing in his son.

If you agree with me, and are a Christian, please square your response with the rest of the New Testament. What I'm looking for is scriptural consistency to back up your position, and more importantly, how one will then re-read the entire message of the New Testament, if one wants to hold that position. I say this because I don't want you to drop scripture, simply because it doesn't conform to your own personal beliefs, but I am looking for how one can reinterpret the New testament, if one drops that central tenant, & for the rest of us, impediment, to everlasting life. Is there room for this? Or is the New Testament rigidly in the affirmative about Christ being the only way to heaven? Which is fine. That's their theology, but let's see where this goes.

[Benoni]

Catholics teach the doctrine of Purgatory, where a lot of imperfect folks go to be purifed for Heaven, MUCH more merciful than the stark dichotomy of Heaven for some, Hell for most.

Purgatory is a place or condition in which the souls of the just are purified after death and before they can enter heaven. They may be purified of the guilt of their venial sins, as in this life, by an act of contrition deriving from charity and performed with the help of grace. This sorrow does not, however, affect the punishment for sins, because in the next world there is no longer any possibility of merit. The souls are certainly purified by atoning for the temporal punishments due to sin by their willing acceptance of suffering imposed by God. The sufferings in purgatory are not the same for all, but proportioned to each person's degree of sinfulness.

If Jesus paid the penalty for our sins, why must the "souls of the just" (believers) atone for the temporal punishments due to sin by suffering more in purgatory?

There is no need for purgatory if Jesus truly paid our penalty for sinning!

Believers enter the Kingdom of God as spotless, sinless children of God.

What a comical theology.

Probably created to justify the inquisition.

That is what the Lake of fire will do. I do not believe in the Catholic unscriptural word pugatory, but I do believe all who have not overcome will go though the Lake of fir process; very spiritual

[Thruit]

Elijah John posted,
I was just thinking along those lines this morning. Is it not true that believing in Jesus means believing in his message? The Golden rule, Love of God, Love of Neighbor, the Beattitudes, and the Lord's prayer?
Yes my friend.

How can I not love someone who makes JHVH real for me? That is what Jesus does with his TEACHINGS.

You're right. Jesus shows us the proper way to live.

[Benoni]

marketandchurch posted


The NT teaches that people who follow the teachings of Jesus will be saved, even if they've never heard of Him:

I do not agree with this. God is not calling th whole world now; if they are not called they cannot believe. God has many ages to call people.







1 Timothy 2:6 (KJV) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.



Act 2:39 "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and TO ALL THAT ARE AFAR OFF, even as many as the Lord our God shall call."

1 Corinthians 15:22-24

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


(order) Gk Strong’s NT:5001 tagma (tag'-mah); from NT:5021; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), i.e. (figuratively) a series or succession:
If God does not call you, you cannot come.

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in His own order; Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming." (I Cor. 15:22-23). There is no doubt concerning the totality of salvation for every man-- whatever was affected by death through Adam, shall be MADE ALIVE THROUGH CHRIST. The triumph of Christ is far greater than the sin of Adam. But the point that is before us is that of TIMING-- with "every man in his own order." There is DIVINE ORDER in this NEW CREATION that is being brought forth, as God gathers one by one a people unto Himself. From Calvary until this present time, God has been working in what is rightly termed "HIS FIRSTFRUITS." We who are living at the ending of this age (web ed. note: which still could be a long ways away) are still being drawn into this "firstfruits order." But never forget, the firstfruits of a harvest are the PROMISE that all the rest of the harvest will follow in its time. (Ray Prinzing)






23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

rom 9:

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

So an understanding of these verses can show that all in every single man is called to salvation..

The matt 22 passage is giving us to know, that Israel in general was a called people nationally, all in Israel were of Gods national covenant people, that came up out of egypt, but there was only a chosen remnant in the nation. So in this sense many in Israel had been called but few chosen. Also in General, when the gospel call for the elect is preached, its in hearing of the non elect, hence they outwardly hear the call of the elect who hear it inwardly and effectually. But its abundantly clear in scripture to the honest reader, that all are not called to salvation as in rom 8:

28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

This verse gives no sense that all individuals indiscriminately are called according to Gods eternal purpose.

[Thruit]

Benoni posted,
I do not agree with this. God is not calling th whole world now; if they are not called they cannot believe. God has many ages to call people.

God is calling the whole world now:

Act 17:30
... God...commandeth all men every where to repent.

God desires everyone to repent because He:

1Ti 2:4
...will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 2:6 (KJV) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

A ransom for "all" of who?

Act 2:39 "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and TO ALL THAT ARE AFAR OFF, even as many as the Lord our God shall call."

So the promise is to everyone, but the promise is only given to those who believe it:

For many are called, but few are chosen. Mt.22:14

. From Calvary until this present time, God has been working in what is rightly termed "HIS FIRSTFRUITS."

We are not going to precede OT believers into the Kingdom of God.

1Cr 15:20
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

"Them that slept" include Abraham, David, Job, or any other believer who died in Christ.

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

If you want to know how God forms people as a potter forms clay, read Jer.18.

[Wall]

[quote="[url=http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 025#559025]

• Topic of Debate: A Good God would not send to hell a decent person, simply for not believing in his son.

[/quote]

Yeah, im with ya on this one....I think. There are actually some people who believe that their God would create a people (such as north american indians in the 1300’s). A time when these people had no chance of hearing about Jesus. Then send them to hell for not believing in Jesus. No way.

JOHN 5 [28]Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, [29] And shall come forth; THEY THAT HAVE DONE GOOD, unto the resurrection of life; and THEY THAT HAVE DONE EVIL, unto the resurrection of damnation.

See how that an hour is coming where the evil and the good shall be raise. This is the great white throne judgement. Most denominations would have you to believe that only the evil will be raised at this time. Youll notice theres nothing in the above scripture about belief in Christ or God.

ACTS 24 [14] But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: [15] And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that THERE SHALL BE A RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, BOTH OF THE JUST AND UNJUST.

This is clear. The good AND the bad. Theres 2 general resurrections to come. One is at the 1Cor.15 event at which time only the dead in Christ will rise. So acts 24 must be speaking of the great white throne

REV. 20 [4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [6] BLESSED AND HOLY IS HE THAT HATH PART IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION: ON SUCH THE SECOND DEATH HATH NO POWER, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Those who followed directions to the city need not worry about the 2nd ressurection. They will enjoy the 1000 yr period of rest.

REV. 20 [11]And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. [12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and THE BOOKS WERE OPENED: and another book was opened, which is THE BOOK OF LIFE: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS. [13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. [14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Again, no mention of belief in Jesus or God. They are simply judged by their works. One of the books opened...the book of life {that would be the book of eternal life mentioned by Jesus in below scripture}

MATTHEW 19 [16]And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? [17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. [18] He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, [19] Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The works these people will be judged by is that portion of the ten commandments that pertain to your interaction with man. Jesus tells us that, so you can take it to the bank. The man asked Jesus how he should attain eternal life. Jesus did not mention even one of the ten commandments that deal with your interaction with God. Had Jesus been asked, how shall I be saved to the kingdom? Jesus would have given a totally different answer. But to your question..an atheist? I simply do not know.

[keithprosser3]

Why would a 'decent atheist' care? And which hell would an atheist be sent to? YHWHs hell, Allahs's hell, the Greek mythological underworld? Niflheim? The bad hunting grounds?

But (as a relatively decent atheist myself) if I wasn't sent to one of the various hells I don't believe in, of all the heavens I don't believe in my least favourite is the Christian one. It sounds awfully dull. The Islamic heaven sounds better, what with all those almond-eyed beautiful houris and such, or Valhalla where you could be sure of a decent drink once in a while would seem much better places to spend eternity.

Yes, I think that's right. A good god would send a decent atheist to Valhalla.

[Danmark]

Why would a 'decent atheist' care? And which hell would an atheist be sent to? YHWHs hell, Allahs's hell, the Greek mythological underworld? Niflheim? The bad hunting grounds?

But (as a relatively decent atheist myself) if I wasn't sent to one of the various hells I don't believe in, of all the heavens I don't believe in my least favourite is the Christian one. It sounds awfully dull. . . .

There's a reason good ol' Sam Clemens said,

"Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company."

[myth-one.com]

But (as a relatively decent atheist myself) if I wasn't sent to one of the various hells I don't believe in, of all the heavens I don't believe in my least favourite is the Christian one. It sounds awfully dull. The Islamic heaven sounds better, what with all those almond-eyed beautiful houris and such, or Valhalla where you could be sure of a decent drink once in a while would seem much better places to spend eternity.

In actuality, the Bible never states that Christians are going to heaven! It states that believers will enter or become members of the Kingdom of Heaven.

This entire kingdom could be much larger than its base of activity which is Heaven itself. That is, the ruler is God the Father who rules from Heaven. His rule extends over the entire Kingdom of Heaven. This will eventually include the earth which will be ruled by Jesus. Jesus is presently in Heaven preparing a place for us:

I go to prepare a place for you. (John 14:2)

When our place is ready, Jesus will bring it back to earth upon His return:

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (John 14:3)

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (Revelation 21:1-2)

The earth is not presently part of the Kingdom of Heaven. It is basically a colony which has rebelled under Satan and some of his angels and broken away from the kingdom. However, the kingdoms of this world will once again become the kingdoms of our Lord and Christ:

The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Revelation 11:15)

When Jesus returns and seizes control of the earth from Satan, the earth will once again become part of the Kingdom of Heaven.

And how long does Jesus our Lord intend to reign on the earth?

The Lord shall reign for ever and ever. (Exodus 15:18)

The Lord shall reign for ever... (Psalm 146:10)

And they shall reign for ever and ever. (Revelation 22:5)

And what are the born again Christians going to be doing after Jesus' return?

We shall also reign with him. (II Timothy 2:12)

And how long are the born again Christians going to be with the Lord Jesus?

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (I Thessalonians 4:17)

Since Jesus is going to rule the earth forever from new Jerusalem, and we will rule with Him, and be with Him forever, where does that place born again believers forever and ever according to the Bible?

On the earth!

[Benoni]

Why [Replying to Wall]

HHOGWASH. Why would they be judged by the ten commandments? That is the Law of Moses. Are you forgeting something???? The blood of Jesus?

[Benoni]

Benoni posted,
I do not agree with this. God is not calling th whole world now; if they are not called they cannot believe. God has many ages to call people.

God is calling the whole world now:

Act 17:30
... God...commandeth all men every where to repent.

God desires everyone to repent because He:

1Ti 2:4
...will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth

.

1 Timothy 2:6 (KJV) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

How can some one belive until God calls them? Show me where all are being called? Her is God's Word not my opinion showing us not all are called NOW.

1 Timothy 2:6 (KJV) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Act 2:39 "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and TO ALL THAT ARE AFAR OFF, even as many as the Lord our God shall call."

1 Corinthians 15:22-24

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


A ransom for "all" of who?

Act 2:39 "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and TO ALL THAT ARE AFAR OFF, even as many as the Lord our God shall call."

So the promise is to everyone, but the promise is only given to those who believe it:

For many are called, but few are chosen. Mt.22:14

This is not the world this verse is speaking of it is addresing God's elect; his firstfruits his overcomers.

NOTICE: There are two groups of people I the book of Revelation; those who overcome (God’s elect) and everyone else.

Notice there is a distinction between the great multitudes BEFORE the throne (Rev. 7:9) in comparison to the overcomer who Christ will grant to sit with me on my throne (Rev. 3:21) .

Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev. 3: 21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

. From Calvary until this present time, God has been working in what is rightly termed "HIS FIRSTFRUITS."

We are not going to precede OT believers into the Kingdom of God.

1Cr 15:20
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

"Them that slept" include Abraham, David, Job, or any other believer who died in Christ.

OT? Read your Bible:

What I have here is a direct quote from God’s Word how God is calling all people what ever context it may be in. Yes God is calling all men; but not now. When the Bible speaks of firstfruits it is speaking

Rev. 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, a[a] Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. 3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed[c] from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no deceit,[d] for they are without fault before the throne of God.[e]


The firstfruits are God’s Elect/ the overcomers who will rule and reign with Christ; they will become Kings and Priest for the remainder of all mankind; who are being called according to God’s timing. There are all kinds of scripture sprinkled thought out God’s Word how this will be accomplished; below is Acts 15:16-18 is one example.

Acts 15:16-18

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17 That the residue (remainder) of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world
KJV