The Theory of RELATIVITY

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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help3434
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Post #431

Post by help3434 »

[Replying to post 427 by arian]

If the shuttle took of in the direction of the platform their velocities relative to each other would be much less than it took off in the opposite direction, and so the time dilation relative to each other would be less.

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Post #432

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[Replying to post 427 by arian]

arian wrote:
Now watch, .. what if the shuttle took off at 0.8 C IN the direction of the Platform? (Remember the Platform was traveling at 0.4 C relative to Earth it took off from.)

The Shuttle relative to the platform would be now going only at 0.4 C, but if it took off the opposite direction, the shuttle would be traveling at 0.8 C relative to the Platform. So are you saying that 'time' in the shuttle would be going much slower if it took off the opposite direction the Platform was traveling, .. but NOT if it took off the direction the Platform was traveling?

In reality the engines in the shuttle created a velocity of 0.8 C in either direction, another word according to the Navigation officer, the shuttle would be traveling at 0.8 C no matter which direction it took off from the Platform.
Hi, arian,
Again, you are confusing yourself and everybody else by throwing speeds around without specifying exactly what those speeds are RELATIVE TO. You can't do that out in space. First you say that the Shuttle took off from the Platform at .8 C, but then you seem to say that .8 C was relative to earth, not the Platform, but later you reverse yourself again by saying it was relative to the Platform.

Hold your breath! You will love this! If the Platform was traveling away from earth at .4 C and the Shuttle took off from the Platform in the same direction away from earth at .8 C relative to the Platform, I suppose you would say, from your grand birds-eye view, that the Shuttle was then traveling away from earth at a combined speed of 1.2 C, faster than light! But what would both the earth and the Shuttle observe their combined separation speed to be? That is what matters here. If we call the earth A and the Shuttle B, then the formula for their combined speed, as measured by each other, is (A+B)/(1+AB). This means that you first add the two speeds together and then divide that result by 1 plus the two speeds multiplied togeher. If you play around with this formula and try inserting different speeds into it and then calculate the results, you will find that no matter what each speed is, they never add together to produce a combined speed greater than 1.0 C, or the speed of light. In fact, if even one of the speeds is 1.0 C, the speed of light, then the combned result will always be 1.0 C, no matter what the other speed is.

Wow! Don't pop a blood vessel over this,

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Post #433

Post by arian »

JohnPaul wrote:
arian wrote: [Replying to post 422 by JohnPaul]

:lol: Amen to that John Paul, .. but thank goodness it's only a theory.

JohnPaul, I have a question: Let's say there are a dozen different objects in space, all traveling at different speeds in different directions, .. one hits and takes a chunk off the other. These two could experience time dilation, but the rest (since they didn't touch) would NOT? I mean let's put people with clocks on all these different objects, so only the people on the two split objects would experience time dilation?

In my Shuttle and Platform example, why would only the shuttle at .8 C experience time slowing down and not the Platform?
The shuttle is traveling the same velocity relative to the Platform as the Platform is traveling relative to the shuttle, .. isn't that correct? What gives?
You are still missing the fundamental principle of relativity, and I believe that is the source of all your confusion. ALL MOTIONS AND ALL SPEEDS ARE ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS RELATIVE TO SOME OTHER OBJECT OR OBSERVER. THEY NEVER, NEVER NEVER EXIST SEPARATELY BY THEMSELVES. Please print this out and paste it to your forehead, and much of your confusion in this thread will disappear.
I'd like to tell you "Please print this out and paste it to your forehead, and much of your confusion in this thread will disappear" but I'm afraid you might pop a blood vessel, so I won't tell you that.
JohnPaul wrote:ALL MOTIONS AND ALL SPEEDS ARE ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS RELATIVE TO SOME OTHER OBJECT OR OBSERVER. THEY NEVER, NEVER NEVER EXIST SEPARATELY BY THEMSELVES.
So now you are suggesting that all motion and speeds of two objects exist only by a third observer? Do you mean like a universal-birds-eye-view where the speeds of all those different moving objects in space could be individually calculated relative to whichever moving objects cross their path? I agree, .. only I wish you would stick to this obvious view and not regress back to your senseless relativity theory.

Answer me at least this ONE thing (since none of you are able to even comprehend what I am pointing out) ..

Q. You agree that your God-less universe is expanding, .. correct? So tell me, .. "The universe is expanding 'relative' to what?" Here is what I mean; If you see the universe as you see the street shrinking behind you from a speeding car, it could be that the universe is being sucked in for another implosion? It's not the universe expanding, .. it is us speeding closer to that Plank Epoch, we are coming in for another Gravitational Singularity.
Our galaxy could be traveling near light speed towards that singularity, only thanks to Einstein, should we reach near-light speed, our clocks/time for us is stopped. Sure it is still ticking relative to us, .. but to another observer, our time may be one billionth of what it is to the rest of the universe.
JohnPaul wrote:Time dilation is a difference in time itself, not just in clocks. That is why it can only be observd by another differently moving observer, never by the observer experiencing it. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ABSOLUETE TIME.
Wow, .. yet in the Twin-Paradox, after visiting a nearby system and back home one twin is much younger than the other? How do you determine the rate the brother that stayed home was aging if THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ABSOLUETE TIME. ?? You 'assume' one aged less, that is the best relativity can do, assume. Everything is in motion, and without a universal-view of things, EVERYTHING out there has his/its own time-zone. This is why I am trying to open your eyes with my different scenarios, .. I could give you a scenario where actually the brother that stayed home aged less, just by the direction the traveling brother took off from earth in.

You say that the twin that took off from earth in his rocket ship stayed younger, yet he observed that it was the earth that was moving away from him, and visa-versa.
So you are saying that if there was no third party observing this from a third reference point, both of the twins would be traveling the same speed and when they met again, both would have aged less!?!? So why do we need this ridiculous theory again?

So according to you, time dilation is caused by a third person viewing the two objects separate each other, .. correct? Only how does this third-eye determine which object is going faster so he could calculate for time-dilation for the faster one??
And please tell me where in relation to those different objects are you and your calculator when you are figuring time dilation out, that which brother will be older and which younger??
JohnPaul wrote:Time is always RELATIVE to another observer, and cannot be detected within itself alone. Every observer in the universe has his own special slice and sees both time and space differently than other moving observers. This does not mean that just their clocks are running differently. Time itself is different for them.
What? Time itself is different for them and yet you can tell me which twin aged less? So I guess I'll just have to take your word for it, because so far all your answers to my same questions are different relative to each post. Wait, .. are you traveling at some very high speeds while you are debating with me? That would explain some of it, you may be experiencing time-dilation and think you already answered my questions a long time ago, .. only I haven't received it yet?
JohnPaul wrote:In your question about the Platform and the Shuttle, each one sees time dilation in the other, but cannot see it in themselves. There is no such thing as absolute time dilation. Like time itself, time dilation is always RELATIVE to some other moving observer, and is different for all other differently moving observers.
Yes, .. they each see the other moving relative to themselves. So they both age the same, and both their clocks works the same, .. like everyone else's. Well, except GPS clocks, they're all over the place.
JohnPaul wrote:Of course you are not going to believe all this, but if you are going to make sense and not waste all our time in this thread, you will have to use it here. Please remember that "common sense" disappeared from physics in the 19th century when our instruments became sensitive enough to detect the very strange behavior of light. Now we know that everything about moving things is strange.[/b]
Not to me, there is nothing strange about figuring time/speed/distance, everyone figures it the same way as I do, .. everyone except Big-bang Evolutionists because there is no common sense in Big-bang evolution. This is why they need to make constant time adjustments to their clocks on the GPS satellites, they are hard headed and opposed to common sense.

Thanks again JohnPaul.
There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root.

Henry D. Thoreau

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Post #434

Post by JohnPaul »

[Replying to post 433 by arian]

arian wrote:
So now you are suggesting that all motion and speeds of two objects exist only by a third observer?
arian, I had some hope for you, but it is now obvious that you are either bone-headedly and hopelessly obstinate or are simply failing to understand anything at all that is said here. Either way, I hope you and your God will be happy together. I have done the best I can. Be well, and don't trust your GPS system. It is Satan lying to you.

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Post #435

Post by arian »

help3434 wrote: [Replying to post 427 by arian]

If the shuttle took of in the direction of the platform their velocities relative to each other would be much less than it took off in the opposite direction, and so the time dilation relative to each other would be less.
Q. What causes 'time dilation'?

If you say it is the 'speed between two objects', then all the speeds of other objects in space would cause time-dilation to each and every other object traveling in space. Each and every object (planet, person, star, galaxy) would reside in a different time-dimension.

If you say it is only 'speed', like getting near 186,282 m/p/s, then as I explained the shuttle vs. the Platform, .. no matter which direction the shuttle takes off in from the Platform, .. if it's traveling 0.8 C, the speed of the shuttle will be 0.8 C, .. correct?
But if this is the case that time dilation occurs near 186,282 m/p/s, then the Platform that launched off earth at 0.4 C would ADD to the speed the shuttle took off from it. Another word if the shuttle took off in the direction the Platform was traveling at, in this case 0.8 C, .. the shuttle would be going at 1.2 C relative to earth. IT IS still a relative speed, we can't switch 'relative to another' every time the speed is greater than C. That is stupid. The shuttle is still 'related. or relative to earth even if it sat there on the Platform all this time, .. it was still traveling at 0.4 C relative to earth. So when the shuttle takes off the Platform at 0.8 C, it is traveling at 1.2 C relative to earth, .. period.

But NOOoooo.. they say. You need to use OUR formulas otherwise of course Relativity doesn't make sense.

This is why they never use the number 186,282 m/p/s, the actual speed of light in any calculations because the whole thing falls apart. So they use C, and if you go over C, then they tell you to switch formulas.

They ask you: "How do you know that your answer is right?"
A. "Well if you didn't pass C, you are right, and if you do pass C, then you are not using the right formulas. You must USE THE FORMULAS WE GIVE YOU!" LOL

Read JohnPauls posts to me, .. as if the poor guy will brainwash/indoctrinate me with his bold faced repetitious words, .. lol. But, .. that's religion for you, they'll do anything to protect and to promote it, .. even if it's by lies.

I mean I can't be the only one who sees this? There were a few here that admit to this conspiracy to stupefy people, but why is the rest so hell-bent on sticking with such nonsense? Why, .. because then they have no excuse for not believing in a Creator God? Wow, .. that is truly sad.
There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root.

Henry D. Thoreau

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Post #436

Post by dianaiad »

JohnPaul wrote: [Replying to post 433 by arian]

arian wrote:
So now you are suggesting that all motion and speeds of two objects exist only by a third observer?
arian, I had some hope for you, but it is now obvious that you are either bone-headedly and hopelessly obstinate or are simply failing to understand anything at all that is said here. Either way, I hope you and your God will be happy together. I have done the best I can. Be well, and don't trust your GPS system. It is Satan lying to you.
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Post #437

Post by Star »

[Replying to post 435 by arian]

Arian, you just don't understand how it works. This is abundantly clear to me based on the silly misconceptions you keep perpetrating. We can't explain it to you because of the communication barrier that exists between us. I can't sway you with math, because you don't grasp it. I can't even communicate simple one-digit numbers to you without you relaying back something completely different. Most your posts contain strawman arguments. In the last scenario you gave, the two ships weren't moving in relation to each other from the point the clock was reset, as you said so yourself. Unfortunately, debating you on complex subjects appears to be impossible. In order to debate, one must understand what he or she is debating.

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Post #438

Post by help3434 »

[Replying to post 433 by arian]

When we figure out which brother is older, we can do that because by then they are both in the same time reference. The one that traveled is now back and Earth and not traveling relative to his brother anymore.

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Post #439

Post by arian »

Star wrote: [Replying to post 435 by arian]

Arian, you just don't understand how it works. This is abundantly clear to me based on the silly misconceptions you keep perpetrating. We can't explain it to you because of the communication barrier that exists between us. I can't sway you with math, because you don't grasp it. I can't even communicate simple one-digit numbers to you without you relaying back something completely different. Most your posts contain strawman arguments. In the last scenario you gave, the two ships weren't moving in relation to each other from the point the clock was reset, as you said so yourself. Unfortunately, debating you on complex subjects appears to be impossible. In order to debate, one must understand what he or she is debating.
Sorry Star, but this is not debate. What you and JohnPaul are making is general defensive remarks to my questions. Defensive and even rude since you know I found a huge rip in this relativity theory thing, and I am ripping the whole thing apart.

What communication barrier are you talking about, of every last person, I must be the most lay-person here, because as I said a hundred times, I never had basic schooling. Most of my terminologies I learned from you guys.
Yes, .. I cannot do even basic Algebra, I need a booklet to figure out trig, I need my spelling checkerer to correct my spelling, and until just a few months ago, I had to look up about every third word you guys said (except the insults, .. those I understood)
Debating on this site has taught me, tried me, shamed me, humbled me, berated me, .. and I am thankful for every one of these things, for as the Bible says, just as gold is refined by fire, we humans are refined by trials, by testing.

But in all this, I know where I stand just by reading your responses. I know by those responses where you guys stand too, and it is sandy-ground to say the least. I used to think that I would need a tsunami to destabilize these Big-bang Evolutionary ideas like this Relativity theory, but now I see all I need is a cup of water, and your whole foundation starts crumbling. I just have to know where to pour the water.

"Arian you don't understand. Arian you are miss conceived. This guy doesn't know just how dumb he is" etc.. and so on. I have given clear and understandable examples of flaws in this theory, the paradoxes it creates, the nonsense which need special formulas to make some sense out of, and you guys either play dumb, or it's because you know this is all a made up BS to keep the Big bang theory alive.
Star wrote:Most your posts contain strawman arguments. In the last scenario you gave, the two ships weren't moving in relation to each other from the point the clock was reset, as you said so yourself. Unfortunately, debating you on complex subjects appears to be impossible. In order to debate, one must understand what he or she is debating
I admit that back at the time I started this Thread, there were quite a few things (formulas created by other scientists to help/keep the theory alive) that I didn't understand, and even admitted that by using those formulas/charts relativity does make sense still with a few paradoxes of course, which yet other formulas/apologetics seemed to explain. But now I have studied these formulas I see that they don't explain the paradoxes created by relativity theory, but only explain other formulas. Formulas upon formulas to explain formulas, which in turn create other paradoxes. And you guys intend to solve these other problems/paradoxes by simply saying; "You just don't understand because it is just too complex for you, and you are dumb .. etc. "

One thing I know I am not, .. and that is dumb. I can visualize things and figure complex problems before you even put your pencil on your paper. If I was to explain this in formulas and numbers, .. I would probably need hundreds of pages, and for sure then you would say "it's all mumbo-jumbo", and of course it would probably look like it too.

I have presented in my previous posts several very good and simple questions, and I see you guys keep ignoring them. So in my humble opinion, I have proven my case regarding time-dilation, length contraction and weight-gain presented in the Theory of Relativity, .. it is all a religious hoax, .. a conspiracy to stupefy, or force scientists to act stupid regarding the Evolution-Big-bang theory.

Why, .. well the Georgia Guide Stones for sure will explain the religious conspiracy behind trying to make humans, who were meticulously created in his Creators image, believe he is nothing but a dumb animal. The stones give ten commandments, and present the idea that this earth can only handle 500 million people.

And who is this message to?

It is to the 7 billion people who are living presently on this earth today.

I don't know about you, .. but if someone just left a note on my door with this same message on it, .. I would be concerned. But when we have human sacrifices by the thousands like the one on 9-11, people should no longer be just concerned, by 'alarmed'.
There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root.

Henry D. Thoreau

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Post #440

Post by arian »

help3434 wrote: [Replying to post 433 by arian]

When we figure out which brother is older, we can do that because by then they are both in the same time reference. The one that traveled is now back and Earth and not traveling relative to his brother anymore.
Thanks help3434

If time dilates with speed, then why would different reference frames matter? Let's say he traveled these high speeds where he gained 8 years off his life span, another word if he landed back on earth, this could be very noticeable with his twin brother, right? The thing is that 'he gained 8 years', .. period, .. no matter where he went or landed in the entire universe, he would have saved a noticeable 8 years of his life, isn't that right?

(Now please, .. before you start saying to yourself that if someone was traveling towards him at 0.4 C, or half his speed, the difference in aging would be halved. Read through what I have to say first, .. please)

If you agree that 'speed' is the cause of time dilation, in this case the traveling brothers 0.8 C speeds for that certain time that gained him 8 years, .. right?

Now watch this; Let's put the twins on my Platform traveling at 0.4 C from earth. One day one of the twins on the Platform decides to go and check out a nearby system.

Note: This is in the future where ships can calculate the speed by a power/force ratio which has been calibrated within 1 mph to a relative object, another word it is no longer necessary to calculate ship speed relative to where it took off from.
This was done because of the problems an orbiting planet around its sun caused in keeping an accurate relative speed. After the ship took off a planet, every time that planet spinned around the sun, the ship showed a higher speed. Then when the planet came back around towards the distancing ship, the speed limit on the ship showed lower.


OK, .. so with a built in speed calculator on his shuttle, one of the twins takes off IN the direction of the Platform doing 0.8 C

Now how fast is the shuttle going? It is traveling at 0.8 C according to the on-board speedometer, AND according to relative Platform/shuttle speed. So it doesn't matter if the Platform stopped for some reason, the shuttle would still be cruising at 0.8 C, and his on-board computer speedometer verifies this speed .. correct?

The same way if the twin/shuttle took off the OPPOSITE direction the Platform was traveling, and revved up his engines to 0.8 C according to his on-board computer speedometer, he would be traveling at 0.8 C (remember the onboard computer can figure out exactly how much thrust is needed to get the shuttle up to 0.8 C. As I said, .. this speed has been taken and verified by actually taking off from something and calculating time/distance/thrust to get the right speed)

Now let's look at my V formation example, where the twin takes off the Platform at a forward 15 degree Platform/shuttle formation, revs up the engines which give exactly the thrust the shuttle needs to push it to the velocity of 0.8 C. But relative to the Platform, it would be showing far, far LESS speed, maybe even 0.1 C (you can do the math if you like) So when is time dilation going to kick in, .. when he reaches relative-to Platform 0.99 C (which would be something like 15 to 20.0 C according to the on-board computer speedometer), or when he reaches his on-board, or universal/constant/realistic/actual speed?

You see, .. this is what I'm talking about, .. what is relevant? Is it relativity like the speed the shuttle is moving away relative to the Platform? In which case in my V formation example the shuttle would have to stress the engines to get to 0.8 C 'relative to the Platform', all the while the on-board computer would be showing 3, or 4.0 C already.

SPEED cannot always be measured relative to other objects, and I proved this by two ships separating in space and taking off in a 15 deg. V formation.

I mean using this Relative theory, the twin could gain years twice as fast doing the same speed, but only changing the direction he takes off of the Platform, or the opposite direction the other twin is moving.

This to me does not make sense, and is not according to this universes laws of physics. How could one twin slow time faster doing the same speed, only changing direction?

I might as well get to the point since only a very few can comprehend my hints and examples anyways.

Here is my conclusion:
The answer is in the constant speed of light, which as I believe Einstein said, is not relative/dependent to any moving object, it is always C. If we turn on the headlights on a ship traveling 0.8 C OR one traveling at 0.4 C, the light will travel at C relative to any observer, .. correct?
Well so does everything else, including shuttles off of either planets, or huge Flying Platforms. If the shuttle is traveling at 0.8 C (verified by the shuttles on-board computer - thrust/time=speed) no matter what speed the Platform is traveling, it doesn't matter which direction, or what angle the two will separate, if the shuttle is going 0.8 C. it will be traveling at 0.8 C, .. period.


Common sense, if you guys can imagine light doing this, then why can't you imagine everything else doing it? All speeds are 'constant', whether it's at 20,000 miles per hour, or if it's 5 mph. or if it's at C. This goes for thrust, .. whether it's 20 lb of thrust or 20,000 lb. of thrust, its a constant.

I mean why are we using relative-to speeds when it can be so deceiving?

If you need clarification, by all means, ask me first before you make your comment. So far all comments were based on an accepted theory which they themselves admitted that it defied logic. So please, .. please don't defy logic, especially when it comes to science and the laws of physics.

So in conclusion, ALL Speed is Constant, no matter what relativity may show otherwise, .. and no matter what speeds. So now tell me about time dilation, so we can all use the same proven system, and see if time dilation and length contraction makes any sense or not?

Thanks.
There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root.

Henry D. Thoreau

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