Longevity

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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McCulloch
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Post #11

Post by McCulloch »

Volbrigade wrote: There have been three distinct environments during the history of the Earth.

The first was pre-Fall (and pre-Curse). It was dimensionally different than the two that followed it. We have no way of knowing what it was like, other than the clues given us in the first pages of Scripture; for instance, we know that the first man (Adam) had a direct experiential relationship with God; we know that carnivory and predation were non-existent.
How do you know this? We are discussing scientific knowledge, so "The Bible Tells Me So" is not a valid answer. What is it that you mean by being dimensionally different?
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Re: Longevity

Post #12

Post by JohnPaul »

McCulloch wrote:
jamesjah wrote: Lets go back to the time when life expectancy 8 or 000years.
Methuselah is said to have lived 969 years. While he is the oldest living fellow recorded in the Bible, there are other quite long lived patriarchs: Jared, 962 years; Noah, 950 years; Adam, 930 years; Seth, 912 years; Kenan, 910 years; Enosh, 905 years; Mahalalel, 895 years; Lamech, 777 years; Shem, 600 year.

Is there any biological evidence that humans have ever routinely lived beyond 120 years? Is there any biological evidence that any human has ever lived beyond 200 years?

In addition to the Wandering Jew, there is another Biblical character who is still living today and is thus much older than any of those listed above. The first woman, created in Genesis 1:27 at the same time and in the same manner as Adam on the sixth day of creation, is clearly not Eve, who was not created until later in Genesis 2:22 in the Garden of Eden from Adam's rib.

This first woman, later called Lilith, rebelled against Adam's attempted domination of her, and fled from Eden. God covertly helped her in this by giving her his "ineffable Name" to use as a Word of Power, which enabled her to fly over the walls of Eden and elude the angels guarding the gate. She then fled into the wilderness where she was helped to survive by owls and hyenas, which are now Lilith's sacred animals.

At Adam's indignant request, God sent three angels after her. The angels found Lilith near the Red Sea, but were powerless to defy her Word of Power and force her to return. The angels did negotiate an agreement with her, whereby Lilith would accept demonization in return for her immortality and freedom.

Since Lilith left Eden before the Fall and did not eat of the "Forbidden Fruit," she did not share in God's condemnation of Adam and Eve to suffer death. She remains immortal and living among us today, where she flies at night during storms and may enter a human home to steal away the life of a newborn child. Lilith may be prevented from entering a home by posting the names of the three angels, Senoi, Sansenoi, and Semangelof, over the door.

BTW, the three angels are still practicing law, specializing in divorce, with branch offices in many of our cities.

So now you know the truth!

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Post #13

Post by Volbrigade »

McCulloch wrote:
Volbrigade wrote: There have been three distinct environments during the history of the Earth.

The first was pre-Fall (and pre-Curse). It was dimensionally different than the two that followed it. We have no way of knowing what it was like, other than the clues given us in the first pages of Scripture; for instance, we know that the first man (Adam) had a direct experiential relationship with God; we know that carnivory and predation were non-existent.
How do you know this? We are discussing scientific knowledge, so "The Bible Tells Me So" is not a valid answer. What is it that you mean by being dimensionally different?
I became engaged elsewhere; and then my discussions have curiously ground to a halt (I write that with the firm assurance that it will invite some infantile and glib retaliatory response -- though not from you 8-) ). So, I thought I'd venture a response here, Mac (may I collegially refer to you in that way?); though I intrude on this thread only to shine a ray of truth in the darkness of idle speculation, the purpose of which is to escape from that truth.

Here's what I mean by "dimensionally different".

We exist in three spacial dimensions, plus time -- correct? Not mentioning here the minimum of six extra dimensions required by superstring theory, because they are inferred, not observable.

If you measure a right triangle, and the sum of the angles is more than 180 degrees, what does that tell you? It tells you that you are dealing with more than two dimensions, of course. Not a plane -- perhaps a sphere. You have added an "extra dimension". Einstein used this insight in developing his landmark theorems; he added the dimension of time to his consideration of space. Others have made similar dimensional additions -- Yang and Mills, et. al. -- in the quest for a "unified theory".

The point being, we do not know what the extent of our shared reality is, beyond our 4D space-time continuum. Whatever it is, it is not observable, but must be inferred, except in those instances where it crashes into our subset of it, like a ball dropped through a two-dimensional universe. Those sorts of interferences, or interactions, with our reality are precisely what is recorded in the Bible.

They still occur today. Legitimate accounts of extra-terrestrial UFOs -- some are -- fall into that category. But let's not get sidetracked.

What we see in the risen Jesus Christ is an example of a person who exists in a hyperdimensionality -- one that is "dimensionally different" than our 4D experience.

We see the attributes of this in His appearance to His disciples in the upper room. He manifests in a six-sided enclosure, without penetrating any of the sides. He is not limited by our constraints of space and time; though He may reduce Himself to them: a cube can always appear as a square, depending on perspective.

By the way, we shall have the same attributes as He does, in our resurrected lives, as 1 John 3:2 attests.

The point being, it has been speculated that Adam, in his prefallen state, enjoyed at least some form of this hyperdimensionality expressed perfectly in Jesus, "the last Adam". Hence, he was able to "walk with God" in the garden. He was not subject to death, disease, etc.

When he disobeyed, God put a curse on His entire creation -- "for your (Adam's) sake." He would not sentence fallen, imperfect man to existence in a perfect environment.

We, therefore, exist in a time domain that is "dimensionally different" than the pre-fallen one.

Can I prove this? Of course not. It is a speculation, but one that I believe is rational, plausible, explanatory. And which it is not possible to understand the full ramifications of from within our limited 4D existence.

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Post #14

Post by McCulloch »

Volbrigade wrote: Here's what I mean by "dimensionally different".

We exist in three spacial dimensions, plus time -- correct? Not mentioning here the minimum of six extra dimensions required by superstring theory, because they are inferred, not observable.

If you measure a right triangle, and the sum of the angles is more than 180 degrees, what does that tell you? It tells you that you are dealing with more than two dimensions, of course. Not a plane -- perhaps a sphere. You have added an "extra dimension". Einstein used this insight in developing his landmark theorems; he added the dimension of time to his consideration of space. Others have made similar dimensional additions -- Yang and Mills, et. al. -- in the quest for a "unified theory".

The point being, we do not know what the extent of our shared reality is, beyond our 4D space-time continuum. Whatever it is, it is not observable, but must be inferred, except in those instances where it crashes into our subset of it, like a ball dropped through a two-dimensional universe. Those sorts of interferences, or interactions, with our reality are precisely what is recorded in the Bible.
Hold on. This is not what is recorded in the Bible. I find no reference at all to any of these inferences, space-time continuum, non-euclidean geometry or that other stuff anywhere in the Bible.
Volbrigade wrote: They still occur today. Legitimate accounts of extra-terrestrial UFOs -- some are -- fall into that category. But let's not get sidetracked.
We disagree. But let's not get sidetracked.
Volbrigade wrote: What we see in the risen Jesus Christ is an example of a person who exists in a hyperdimensionality -- one that is "dimensionally different" than our 4D experience.

We see the attributes of this in His appearance to His disciples in the upper room. He manifests in a six-sided enclosure, without penetrating any of the sides. He is not limited by our constraints of space and time; though He may reduce Himself to them: a cube can always appear as a square, depending on perspective.
This is an interesting but unsupported hypothesis. Is there any evidence that this hyperdimensionality is humanly possible, or that such a state would extend life?
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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Post #15

Post by JohnPaul »

Volbrigade wrote:
McCulloch wrote:
Volbrigade wrote: There have been three distinct environments during the history of the Earth.

The first was pre-Fall (and pre-Curse). It was dimensionally different than the two that followed it. We have no way of knowing what it was like, other than the clues given us in the first pages of Scripture; for instance, we know that the first man (Adam) had a direct experiential relationship with God; we know that carnivory and predation were non-existent.
How do you know this? We are discussing scientific knowledge, so "The Bible Tells Me So" is not a valid answer. What is it that you mean by being dimensionally different?
I became engaged elsewhere; and then my discussions have curiously ground to a halt (I write that with the firm assurance that it will invite some infantile and glib retaliatory response -- though not from you 8-) ). So, I thought I'd venture a response here, Mac (may I collegially refer to you in that way?); though I intrude on this thread only to shine a ray of truth in the darkness of idle speculation, the purpose of which is to escape from that truth.

Here's what I mean by "dimensionally different".

We exist in three spacial dimensions, plus time -- correct? Not mentioning here the minimum of six extra dimensions required by superstring theory, because they are inferred, not observable.

If you measure a right triangle, and the sum of the angles is more than 180 degrees, what does that tell you? It tells you that you are dealing with more than two dimensions, of course. Not a plane -- perhaps a sphere. You have added an "extra dimension". Einstein used this insight in developing his landmark theorems; he added the dimension of time to his consideration of space. Others have made similar dimensional additions -- Yang and Mills, et. al. -- in the quest for a "unified theory".

The point being, we do not know what the extent of our shared reality is, beyond our 4D space-time continuum. Whatever it is, it is not observable, but must be inferred, except in those instances where it crashes into our subset of it, like a ball dropped through a two-dimensional universe. Those sorts of interferences, or interactions, with our reality are precisely what is recorded in the Bible.

They still occur today. Legitimate accounts of extra-terrestrial UFOs -- some are -- fall into that category. But let's not get sidetracked.

What we see in the risen Jesus Christ is an example of a person who exists in a hyperdimensionality -- one that is "dimensionally different" than our 4D experience.

We see the attributes of this in His appearance to His disciples in the upper room. He manifests in a six-sided enclosure, without penetrating any of the sides. He is not limited by our constraints of space and time; though He may reduce Himself to them: a cube can always appear as a square, depending on perspective.

By the way, we shall have the same attributes as He does, in our resurrected lives, as 1 John 3:2 attests.

The point being, it has been speculated that Adam, in his prefallen state, enjoyed at least some form of this hyperdimensionality expressed perfectly in Jesus, "the last Adam". Hence, he was able to "walk with God" in the garden. He was not subject to death, disease, etc.

When he disobeyed, God put a curse on His entire creation -- "for your (Adam's) sake." He would not sentence fallen, imperfect man to existence in a perfect environment.

We, therefore, exist in a time domain that is "dimensionally different" than the pre-fallen one.

Can I prove this? Of course not. It is a speculation, but one that I believe is rational, plausible, explanatory. And which it is not possible to understand the full ramifications of from within our limited 4D existence.
Excellent! I have had some of the same thoughts. If you keep this up and drop your offensive preaching, I will begin to pay attention to you. Good work!

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Post #16

Post by otseng »

JohnPaul wrote: Excellent! I have had some of the same thoughts. If you keep this up and drop your offensive preaching, I will begin to pay attention to you. Good work!
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Post #17

Post by Volbrigade »

[Replying to post 14 by McCulloch]
Volbrigade wrote:
Here's what I mean by "dimensionally different".

We exist in three spacial dimensions, plus time -- correct? Not mentioning here the minimum of six extra dimensions required by superstring theory, because they are inferred, not observable.

If you measure a right triangle, and the sum of the angles is more than 180 degrees, what does that tell you? It tells you that you are dealing with more than two dimensions, of course. Not a plane -- perhaps a sphere. You have added an "extra dimension". Einstein used this insight in developing his landmark theorems; he added the dimension of time to his consideration of space. Others have made similar dimensional additions -- Yang and Mills, et. al. -- in the quest for a "unified theory".

The point being, we do not know what the extent of our shared reality is, beyond our 4D space-time continuum. Whatever it is, it is not observable, but must be inferred, except in those instances where it crashes into our subset of it, like a ball dropped through a two-dimensional universe. Those sorts of interferences, or interactions, with our reality are precisely what is recorded in the Bible.
Hold on. This is not what is recorded in the Bible. I find no reference at all to any of these inferences, space-time continuum, non-euclidean geometry or that other stuff anywhere in the Bible.


Did you look into 1st and 2nd Quantum Physiccions?

Did you read between the lines?

Sorry -- couldn't decide which of those I liked best. 8-)

Seriously: for starters, even with regard to some of the central doctrines of Christianity, it is not possible to refer to one specific defining verse, or even chapter. Where is the chapter on Redemption? Justification? Sanctification? Baptism?

It has been posited that the Bible's diffusion of its core message(s) across its entire "bandwith" is by deliberate design: even an encrypted method of derailing "hostile jamming". That is, you can remove any page of the Bible; and while you might decrease the resolution of key issues, you will not substantially affect the entirety of the package.

Because I believe the Bible to be divinely inspired, and "delivered" to us from outside of our time domain, through the auspices of its human authors, I find this argument compelling.

In keeping with its theme: because the God who created the physical laws under which our material reality operates is the same God who guided the transmission of the Biblical text, then the knowledge of those laws are latent within the text -- though not explicitly; what need does an ancient Judean sheepherder, or a modern urban gang member, have for a textbook on quantum mechanics?

That is, just because we have only discovered quantum physics, or the nanotechnology within the living cell, in the last 100 years or so, doesn't mean they haven't always been there; and haven't always applied (discoveries, by the way, that have completely obliterated the quaint and truncated 19th century worldview that has come to dominate scientific, and now popular, understanding). Iows -- Gravity didn't begin with Newton's discovery.

Nor was the knowledge of these things absent from God's mind, and often expressed obliquely and metaphorically in the text. Some excellent tomes have been written detailing the scientific accuracy of the Bible; a quick Google search will, I am confident, be fruitful in that regard.

Consider, for instance, the intriguing phrase "God stretched the heavens like a tent"; which appears several times, in various forms and in various places, throughout Scripture. Consider the ramifications of this through the prism of our current understanding, and not just as a colorful idiom.

In the first place, were the tents that would have been familiar to the authors and readers not made of some sort of fabric? Do we not refer to the "fabric" of space-time?

Next, consider what it means, in terms of the our physical universe, that God in some sense "stretched" it into its present configuration. Several PhD astrophysicists have, and have arrived at interesting conclusions.

Or consider Ephesians 3:18, which refers to "the width and length and depth and height" of Christ's love. Is it just poetic coincidence that is a reference to four dimensions? Which is precisely the insight arrived at by Einstein, 1,900 years later -- that we exist in a 4D space-time continuum? Since I believe "there are no coincidences in God's kingdom", I don't think it is.

That same passage also refers to that Love as "passing all knowledge"; which is precisely the sort of hyperdimensionality that we have been discussing, which is beyond the reach and full understanding of our present limited existence.
Volbrigade wrote:
What we see in the risen Jesus Christ is an example of a person who exists in a hyperdimensionality -- one that is "dimensionally different" than our 4D experience.

We see the attributes of this in His appearance to His disciples in the upper room. He manifests in a six-sided enclosure, without penetrating any of the sides. He is not limited by our constraints of space and time; though He may reduce Himself to them: a cube can always appear as a square, depending on perspective.
This is an interesting but unsupported hypothesis. Is there any evidence that this hyperdimensionality is humanly possible, or that such a state would extend life?
Well, I don't believe it IS "humanly possible", being exclusively the purview of God. He will, as part of His plan and purpose, provide us with spiritual bodies -- the spiritual, or "hyperdimensional" hardware to accommodate our spiritual "software", or our spirits. This is attested throughout the NT, and complies favorably with our current understanding. Of course, if you rule out the Bible as truth, you rule out this complete interpretation of it. Your choice.

That said, there IS evidence (not proof!) that it is "humanly possibly". Are you familiar with the Transhuman movement in science? Among its many permutations is the research into immortality; that is, theoretically, if you could capture the software that composes the bio-electro-chemcial pattern in the brain that (again, theoretically) comprises "you" -- iows, those terabytes of information -- then that could be transferred indefinitely into mechanical, or bio-mechanical, or even cyber (e.g., a "cloud" database) repositories: in effect, achieving immortality.

The flaw, as the Bible points out (leaving aside any other conditions of desirability of such an arrangement) is that this entire universe will "pass away" at the command of Our Lord, followed by a "New Heavens and a New Earth". That is the culmination, and fulfillment, of the entire Bible message.

But consider this: you can load a blank CD or DVD with hundreds of dollars, and thousands of MBs, of software information, without changing its mass or weight. You can even send that software information through the air.

Now, we know that time is a physical property, which is affected by such things as gravity, velocity, acceleration, mass, etc.

It may be that the "software" that is us -- call it soul, spirit, whatever -- has no mass or weight. And is therefore not subject to the dimension of time.

That we are, indeed, eternal, "hyperdimensional". Just as the Bible has said all along.

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Post #18

Post by JohnPaul »

Volbrigade wrote: [Replying to post 14 by McCulloch]
Volbrigade wrote:
Here's what I mean by "dimensionally different".

We exist in three spacial dimensions, plus time -- correct? Not mentioning here the minimum of six extra dimensions required by superstring theory, because they are inferred, not observable.

If you measure a right triangle, and the sum of the angles is more than 180 degrees, what does that tell you? It tells you that you are dealing with more than two dimensions, of course. Not a plane -- perhaps a sphere. You have added an "extra dimension". Einstein used this insight in developing his landmark theorems; he added the dimension of time to his consideration of space. Others have made similar dimensional additions -- Yang and Mills, et. al. -- in the quest for a "unified theory".

The point being, we do not know what the extent of our shared reality is, beyond our 4D space-time continuum. Whatever it is, it is not observable, but must be inferred, except in those instances where it crashes into our subset of it, like a ball dropped through a two-dimensional universe. Those sorts of interferences, or interactions, with our reality are precisely what is recorded in the Bible.
Hold on. This is not what is recorded in the Bible. I find no reference at all to any of these inferences, space-time continuum, non-euclidean geometry or that other stuff anywhere in the Bible.


Did you look into 1st and 2nd Quantum Physiccions?

Did you read between the lines?

Sorry -- couldn't decide which of those I liked best. 8-)

Seriously: for starters, even with regard to some of the central doctrines of Christianity, it is not possible to refer to one specific defining verse, or even chapter. Where is the chapter on Redemption? Justification? Sanctification? Baptism?

It has been posited that the Bible's diffusion of its core message(s) across its entire "bandwith" is by deliberate design: even an encrypted method of derailing "hostile jamming". That is, you can remove any page of the Bible; and while you might decrease the resolution of key issues, you will not substantially affect the entirety of the package.

Because I believe the Bible to be divinely inspired, and "delivered" to us from outside of our time domain, through the auspices of its human authors, I find this argument compelling.

In keeping with its theme: because the God who created the physical laws under which our material reality operates is the same God who guided the transmission of the Biblical text, then the knowledge of those laws are latent within the text -- though not explicitly; what need does an ancient Judean sheepherder, or a modern urban gang member, have for a textbook on quantum mechanics?

That is, just because we have only discovered quantum physics, or the nanotechnology within the living cell, in the last 100 years or so, doesn't mean they haven't always been there; and haven't always applied (discoveries, by the way, that have completely obliterated the quaint and truncated 19th century worldview that has come to dominate scientific, and now popular, understanding). Iows -- Gravity didn't begin with Newton's discovery.

Nor was the knowledge of these things absent from God's mind, and often expressed obliquely and metaphorically in the text. Some excellent tomes have been written detailing the scientific accuracy of the Bible; a quick Google search will, I am confident, be fruitful in that regard.

Consider, for instance, the intriguing phrase "God stretched the heavens like a tent"; which appears several times, in various forms and in various places, throughout Scripture. Consider the ramifications of this through the prism of our current understanding, and not just as a colorful idiom.

In the first place, were the tents that would have been familiar to the authors and readers not made of some sort of fabric? Do we not refer to the "fabric" of space-time?

Next, consider what it means, in terms of the our physical universe, that God in some sense "stretched" it into its present configuration. Several PhD astrophysicists have, and have arrived at interesting conclusions.

Or consider Ephesians 3:18, which refers to "the width and length and depth and height" of Christ's love. Is it just poetic coincidence that is a reference to four dimensions? Which is precisely the insight arrived at by Einstein, 1,900 years later -- that we exist in a 4D space-time continuum? Since I believe "there are no coincidences in God's kingdom", I don't think it is.

That same passage also refers to that Love as "passing all knowledge"; which is precisely the sort of hyperdimensionality that we have been discussing, which is beyond the reach and full understanding of our present limited existence.
Volbrigade wrote:
What we see in the risen Jesus Christ is an example of a person who exists in a hyperdimensionality -- one that is "dimensionally different" than our 4D experience.

We see the attributes of this in His appearance to His disciples in the upper room. He manifests in a six-sided enclosure, without penetrating any of the sides. He is not limited by our constraints of space and time; though He may reduce Himself to them: a cube can always appear as a square, depending on perspective.
This is an interesting but unsupported hypothesis. Is there any evidence that this hyperdimensionality is humanly possible, or that such a state would extend life?
Well, I don't believe it IS "humanly possible", being exclusively the purview of God. He will, as part of His plan and purpose, provide us with spiritual bodies -- the spiritual, or "hyperdimensional" hardware to accommodate our spiritual "software", or our spirits. This is attested throughout the NT, and complies favorably with our current understanding. Of course, if you rule out the Bible as truth, you rule out this complete interpretation of it. Your choice.

That said, there IS evidence (not proof!) that it is "humanly possibly". Are you familiar with the Transhuman movement in science? Among its many permutations is the research into immortality; that is, theoretically, if you could capture the software that composes the bio-electro-chemcial pattern in the brain that (again, theoretically) comprises "you" -- iows, those terabytes of information -- then that could be transferred indefinitely into mechanical, or bio-mechanical, or even cyber (e.g., a "cloud" database) repositories: in effect, achieving immortality.

The flaw, as the Bible points out (leaving aside any other conditions of desirability of such an arrangement) is that this entire universe will "pass away" at the command of Our Lord, followed by a "New Heavens and a New Earth". That is the culmination, and fulfillment, of the entire Bible message.

But consider this: you can load a blank CD or DVD with hundreds of dollars, and thousands of MBs, of software information, without changing its mass or weight. You can even send that software information through the air.

Now, we know that time is a physical property, which is affected by such things as gravity, velocity, acceleration, mass, etc.

It may be that the "software" that is us -- call it soul, spirit, whatever -- has no mass or weight. And is therefore not subject to the dimension of time.

That we are, indeed, eternal, "hyperdimensional". Just as the Bible has said all along.
Perhaps you misunderstood my last comment and mistook it for a sarcastic insult. I apologize for that. I intended it as a sincere compliment. I like your "dimensional" approach here, and agree with it completely.

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Post #19

Post by Volbrigade »

[Replying to post 18 by JohnPaul]
Perhaps you misunderstood my last comment and mistook it for a sarcastic insult. I apologize for that. I intended it as a sincere compliment. I like your "dimensional" approach here, and agree with it completely.
I appreciate that, JP -- both the compliment, and the apology. It is very exciting stuff, isn't it?

Just to clarify: I wasn't offended. And did not report a complaint.

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Post #20

Post by JohnPaul »

Volbrigade wrote: [Replying to post 18 by JohnPaul]
Perhaps you misunderstood my last comment and mistook it for a sarcastic insult. I apologize for that. I intended it as a sincere compliment. I like your "dimensional" approach here, and agree with it completely.
I appreciate that, JP -- both the compliment, and the apology. It is very exciting stuff, isn't it?

Just to clarify: I wasn't offended. And did not report a complaint.
Yes, it is exciting. I majored in physics in school, but never finished. I do try to keep up with it at least at a popular level. I believe there is plenty of room for a god lurking in the gaps. Maybe not the vindictive tribal God of the Bible, but still something better and beyond or present knowledge.

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