Messiah in the Talmud

Thruit · Post by **Thruit** » Tue Jan 07, 2014 1:00 pm

The Talmud says the Hebrew Bible depicts Messiah appearing in two different ways:

Alexandri said: R. Joshua opposed two verses: it is written, And behold, one like the son of man came with the clouds of heaven34 whilst [elsewhere] it is written, [behold, thy king cometh unto thee â€¦ ] lowly, and riding upon an ass!35 â€” if they are meritorious, [he will come] with the clouds of heaven;36 if not, lowly and riding upon an ass.

Rabbi Joshua quoted Daniel 7:13, where the Messiah receives a Kingdom from God.

Rabbi Joshua also quoted Zechariah 9:9, where Messiah comes to His people in humility.

According to Rabbi Joshua, the manner in which the Messiah appears depends on the conduct of the Jewish people.

Is there anything in the Hebrew Bible that indicates the manner of Messiahs coming has anything to do with Israel's behavior?

nothead · Post by **nothead** » Mon Feb 17, 2014 5:11 pm

[Replying to The Me's]

Your idea that Jesus is equated with God is therefore a distorted view. You may want to rethink that one. Even for Trinitarians, Jesus might rise in importance to the level of God, but he never replaces him, and he's never treated as [alone] being God.

Jesus IS equated with God, since the Council of Nicea established his OUSIA to be the same as God.

You may want to rephrase or retract.

The Me's · Post by **The Me's** » Mon Feb 17, 2014 5:17 pm

nothead wrote: [Replying to The Me's]

Your idea that Jesus is equated with God is therefore a distorted view. You may want to rethink that one. Even for Trinitarians, Jesus might rise in importance to the level of God, but he never replaces him, and he's never treated as [alone] being God.
Jesus IS equated with God, since the Council of Nicea established his OUSIA to be the same as God.

You may want to rephrase or retract.

Since the messiah was not present at the council, and he was not allowed to speak for himself, I'm going to take his side and reject the council (as do many protestants).

What are they to me?

If Jesus didn't teach it, it ain't Christianity by any stretch.

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The Me's wrote: What is it with this web site and everyone's penchant to lie about other user posts?

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Thruit · Post by **Thruit** » Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:39 am

Goat posted,
No. Not at all. (This is coming from a Jewish person).

You are incorrect. While many do believe in an afterlife , there are many Jews that do not. The belief in the afterlife, in reincarnation,and things like that is highly variable in the Jewish faith. While traditionally, the belief in the afterlife/resurrection is prominent, it is not dogma or universal

cnorman18 posted,
The "afterlife" is not so much as mentioned in the Torah. There is no formal teaching in Judaism about an "afterlife." Belief in an "afterlife" is common among Jews, but it not required.

Then some Jews have to be right and some have to be wrong. Jesus simply answered the question this way:

"...have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." Mt.22:31-32

Makes sense, doesn't it?

cnorman18 posted,
And even if one believes in a general Resurrection, there is NOTHING -- ANYWHERE -- in Jewish tradition about a "special Resurrection" that concerns the Messiah.

And, of course, I note once again that the issue of a MAN being worshiped as GOD, a key component of Christian belief that is absolutely absent from and contradictory to everything in Jewish belief, teaching and tradition, is still being assiduously avoided here....

Your objection hasn't been avoided. You simply keep making the mistake that what is written about Jesus in the NT isn't Jewish belief.

Goat · Post by **Goat** » Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:07 am

Thruit wrote:
Goat posted,
No. Not at all. (This is coming from a Jewish person).

You are incorrect. While many do believe in an afterlife , there are many Jews that do not. The belief in the afterlife, in reincarnation,and things like that is highly variable in the Jewish faith. While traditionally, the belief in the afterlife/resurrection is prominent, it is not dogma or universal

cnorman18 posted,
The "afterlife" is not so much as mentioned in the Torah. There is no formal teaching in Judaism about an "afterlife." Belief in an "afterlife" is common among Jews, but it not required.
Then some Jews have to be right and some have to be wrong. Jesus simply answered the question this way:

"...have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." Mt.22:31-32

Makes sense, doesn't it?

cnorman18 posted,
And even if one believes in a general Resurrection, there is NOTHING -- ANYWHERE -- in Jewish tradition about a "special Resurrection" that concerns the Messiah.

And, of course, I note once again that the issue of a MAN being worshiped as GOD, a key component of Christian belief that is absolutely absent from and contradictory to everything in Jewish belief, teaching and tradition, is still being assiduously avoided here....
Your objection hasn't been avoided. You simply keep making the mistake that what is written about Jesus in the NT isn't Jewish belief.

What is written about Jesus in the NT doesn't matter one way or another to the Jews. If Jesus existed, he was just a man. He was not the Messiah according to the Jews, End of story. The tasks required of the Messiah have not been accomplished. So, therefore the messiah has not yet come. THere is no tradition that the Messiah will come twice.

Thruit · Post by **Thruit** » Tue Feb 18, 2014 4:38 pm

Goat posted,
What is written about Jesus in the NT doesn't matter one way or another to the Jews. If Jesus existed, he was just a man. He was not the Messiah according to the Jews, End of story. The tasks required of the Messiah have not been accomplished. So, therefore the messiah has not yet come. THere is no tradition that the Messiah will come twice.

According to the Jews who knew Jesus, nothing you have said is true.

The Me's · Post by **The Me's** » Tue Feb 18, 2014 4:57 pm

Thruit wrote:
Goat posted,
What is written about Jesus in the NT doesn't matter one way or another to the Jews. If Jesus existed, he was just a man. He was not the Messiah according to the Jews, End of story. The tasks required of the Messiah have not been accomplished. So, therefore the messiah has not yet come. THere is no tradition that the Messiah will come twice.
According to the Jews who knew Jesus, nothing you have said is true.

Jewish rabbis continued writing about Jesus for a number of centuries AFTER Jesus' crucifixion (there are several dozen passages in the Babylonian Talmud mentioning him by name).

Jesus most certainly did matter to them.

Goat · Post by **Goat** » Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:30 pm

Thruit wrote:
Goat posted,
What is written about Jesus in the NT doesn't matter one way or another to the Jews. If Jesus existed, he was just a man. He was not the Messiah according to the Jews, End of story. The tasks required of the Messiah have not been accomplished. So, therefore the messiah has not yet come. THere is no tradition that the Messiah will come twice.
According to the Jews who knew Jesus, nothing you have said is true.

Please show that this is true. Prove it. Demonstrate that the Gospels were written by people who actually knew Jesus, rather than just claim it, or point to people who claim it.

The Me's · Post by **The Me's** » Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:44 pm

Goat wrote:
Please show that this is true. Prove it. Demonstrate that the Gospels were written by people who actually knew Jesus, rather than just claim it, or point to people who claim it.

I just did.

At a minimum, the Pharisees were obsessed with Jesus of Nazareth and the Christian religion for at least 4 centuries after Jesus was long gone. (Of course part of the reason was Christianity's miraculous success as a world-changing religion.)

Goat · Post by **Goat** » Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:58 pm

The Me's wrote:
Goat wrote:
Please show that this is true. Prove it. Demonstrate that the Gospels were written by people who actually knew Jesus, rather than just claim it, or point to people who claim it.
I just did.

At a minimum, the Pharisees were obsessed with Jesus of Nazareth and the Christian religion for at least 4 centuries after Jesus was long gone. (Of course part of the reason was Christianity's miraculous success as a world-changing religion.)

Well, they were concerned about the stories in the Gospels, which depicted the Jews in the bad light. Some of the stories the Christians claim to be about Jesus were not about the 'Jesus of Nazareth' figure. The one that can be narrowed down to that basically was written down, probably in response to the whole trial claim in Matthew. It basically was saying that the proper laws were followed.. and is most likely in my eyes a response to the Gospels, not to anything Jesus said or did.