For those who believe they have a relationship with Christ

[help3434]

What does it mean to have a relationship with Christ? How do you know that you have a real, two way relationship?

[pmprcv]

When I spend time with someone with whom I have a relationship, that person is physically there. Dialogue involves both persons speaking and both persons listening. In the case of Christ, he is not physically there. In fact, you have to imagine that he is there. You may speak to him, and presume that he can listen, but he speaks not. For any human relationship that I have, I can literally introduce others of my human friends to that person. Please note that I am using the word literally here with its standard correct meaning. You cannot introduce me to Christ, so your relationship with him is fundamentally different from human relationships.

Your personal stance on the matter is clear, but you don't need to be snide or condescendent to get your point across.
I though it was clear I wasn't speaking literally when I said "you can hear Him", but since you misunderstood, I'll restate: a personal relationship with Christ involves communication, such as prayer (from me to Him) and meditation (involving contemplation, reading His word, etc - meaning communication from Him to me); spending time with Him (such as going to Mass), etc.

How is that any different from imagining it?

I guess the same way that loving your family is different than imagining you love your family.

]Did you mean brain when you said heart? Indulge me for a while, and lets be literal. The heart does not listen, it pumps blood. In fact, the ears do not listen either. The ears detect sounds, transmitted to the brain which listens. So, the question is what signals, generated by Christ do you detect ; how do you detect them?

The signals are varied, coming in many forms and at different times. A classic one is the Word of God, i.e., the Bible; it conveys a message from God to me personally. There are many other examples, and because they are so different, it's hard to give you an overview, so I'll give you a personal example: currently the local Prior has gone ill. We normally do not notice the importance of something until it's gone; and since he has been gone to get better, we've really missed his work and his opinion on the everyday life of my parish (even though most people were sort of averse to him being here in the first place, since he is very grumpy). I felt that this sort of vacuum since he's been gone is a sign that I should not only pray for him and his health and quick recovery, but also to be respectful and relish the presence and "value" that he adds to our parish.

In the case of normal human dialogue, I detect auditory signals, human speech, using my ears. How is it that you distinguish these signals from those generated by your own imagination?

These signs are usually actual events; they do not happen in your imagination. Their significance or meaning is determined, then, by your personal subjective experience; while one may feel like they mean nothing, another may feel that Christ is conveying a message through them.

[Goat]

When I spend time with someone with whom I have a relationship, that person is physically there. Dialogue involves both persons speaking and both persons listening. In the case of Christ, he is not physically there. In fact, you have to imagine that he is there. You may speak to him, and presume that he can listen, but he speaks not. For any human relationship that I have, I can literally introduce others of my human friends to that person. Please note that I am using the word literally here with its standard correct meaning. You cannot introduce me to Christ, so your relationship with him is fundamentally different from human relationships.

Your personal stance on the matter is clear, but you don't need to be snide or condescendent to get your point across.
I though it was clear I wasn't speaking literally when I said "you can hear Him", but since you misunderstood, I'll restate: a personal relationship with Christ involves communication, such as prayer (from me to Him) and meditation (involving contemplation, reading His word, etc - meaning communication from Him to me); spending time with Him (such as going to Mass), etc.

How is that any different from imagining it?

I guess the same way that loving your family is different than imagining you love your family.

]Did you mean brain when you said heart? Indulge me for a while, and lets be literal. The heart does not listen, it pumps blood. In fact, the ears do not listen either. The ears detect sounds, transmitted to the brain which listens. So, the question is what signals, generated by Christ do you detect ; how do you detect them?

The signals are varied, coming in many forms and at different times. A classic one is the Word of God, i.e., the Bible; it conveys a message from God to me personally. There are many other examples, and because they are so different, it's hard to give you an overview, so I'll give you a personal example: currently the local Prior has gone ill. We normally do not notice the importance of something until it's gone; and since he has been gone to get better, we've really missed his work and his opinion on the everyday life of my parish (even though most people were sort of averse to him being here in the first place, since he is very grumpy). I felt that this sort of vacuum since he's been gone is a sign that I should not only pray for him and his health and quick recovery, but also to be respectful and relish the presence and "value" that he adds to our parish.

In the case of normal human dialogue, I detect auditory signals, human speech, using my ears. How is it that you distinguish these signals from those generated by your own imagination?

These signs are usually actual events; they do not happen in your imagination. Their significance or meaning is determined, then, by your personal subjective experience; while one may feel like they mean nothing, another may feel that Christ is conveying a message through them.

There is a difference between your family and Christ. You can see your family.

The OP said 'Two way communication'. When it comes to this 'two way communication', how do you know it has an external source, rather than an internalized dialogue you are attributing to Christ?

[pmprcv]

There is a difference between your family and Christ. You can see your family.

The argument wasn't whether or not your family exists, but whether or not you love them or you only imagine that you love them. You can't see (in the literal, visual sense) love.

The OP said 'Two way communication'. When it comes to this 'two way communication', how do you know it has an external source, rather than an internalized dialogue you are attributing to Christ?

As previously stated, personal subjective experience.

[McCulloch]

When I spend time with someone with whom I have a relationship, that person is physically there. Dialogue involves both persons speaking and both persons listening. In the case of Christ, he is not physically there. In fact, you have to imagine that he is there. You may speak to him, and presume that he can listen, but he speaks not. For any human relationship that I have, I can literally introduce others of my human friends to that person. Please note that I am using the word literally here with its standard correct meaning. You cannot introduce me to Christ, so your relationship with him is fundamentally different from human relationships.

Your personal stance on the matter is clear, but you don't need to be snide or condescending to get your point across.

I apologize for my condescension. So many people misuse the word literal and I presumed without any evidence that you might be one of them. That was wrong of me.

I though it was clear I wasn't speaking literally when I said "you can hear Him", but since you misunderstood, I'll restate: a personal relationship with Christ involves communication, such as prayer (from me to Him) and meditation (involving contemplation, reading His word, etc - meaning communication from Him to me); spending time with Him (such as going to Mass), etc.

Meditation is not the act of getting a communication from another. It is self-reflection. There is no way to equate meditation and reading with the stuff of normal human relationships. I have read the writings of many humans, and perhaps deeply reflected or mediated on them, but I cannot honestly claim to have a relationship with those people based on that. Going to Mass involves you being with other humans; at least one priest, other celebrants and observers. Christ is not literally there any more than the wine is literally blood. If he is there at all, it is only in the imagination.

How is that any different from imagining it?

I guess the same way that loving your family is different than imagining you love your family.

Loving my family involves doing things for them, enjoying their company and respecting them. I don't imagine that they are here. They eat the food, sleep in the beds, wear the clothes. I hear them, they hear me. Nothing imaginary going on.

]Did you mean brain when you said heart? Indulge me for a while, and lets be literal. The heart does not listen, it pumps blood. In fact, the ears do not listen either. The ears detect sounds, transmitted to the brain which listens. So, the question is what signals, generated by Christ do you detect ; how do you detect them?

The signals are varied, coming in many forms and at different times. A classic one is the Word of God, i.e., the Bible; it conveys a message from God to me personally.

If I were to print a statement and distribute it to millions, or billions of people, it could not be mistaken for a personal message for any one person.

There are many other examples, and because they are so different, it's hard to give you an overview, so I'll give you a personal example: currently the local Prior has gone ill. We normally do not notice the importance of something until it's gone; and since he has been gone to get better, we've really missed his work and his opinion on the everyday life of my parish (even though most people were sort of averse to him being here in the first place, since he is very grumpy). I felt that this sort of vacuum since he's been gone is a sign that I should not only pray for him and his health and quick recovery, but also to be respectful and relish the presence and "value" that he adds to our parish.

You might interpret this as a communication from God, but it is more easily explained as the result of circumstance and conscience.

In the case of normal human dialogue, I detect auditory signals, human speech, using my ears. How is it that you distinguish these signals from those generated by your own imagination?

These signs are usually actual events; they do not happen in your imagination. Their significance or meaning is determined, then, by your personal subjective experience; while one may feel like they mean nothing, another may feel that Christ is conveying a message through them.

So if you feel that some event is a sign from God, then it must be one. Right? How is that different from imagination? The light turned red just as I approached, God must want me to slow down.

[pmprcv]

I have read the writings of many humans, and perhaps deeply reflected or mediated on them, but I cannot honestly claim to have a relationship with those people based on that.

That's one difference between human relationships and relationships with God. I never claimed they were the same - when asked how this communication occurs, I claimed it was similar to how you maintain a human relationship, in that is requires dialog, taking intimate time to know each other, etc.

Going to Mass involves you being with other humans; at least one priest, other celebrants and observers. Christ is not literally there any more than the wine is literally blood.

We as Catholics do indeed believe Christ is physically there, that the wine becomes His actual blood.

If he is there at all, it is only in the imagination.

In your opinion, which is clearly different from my perspective; therefore, what you are arguing is "your POV makes no sense from my POV". Which is obvious. For those who do not believe in the existence of God, a relationship with Him can only be false and coming from one's imagination.

Loving my family involves doing things for them

No it doesn't. Love is a feeling; it involves nothing more than to feel it.

If I were to print a statement and distribute it to millions, or billions of people, it could not be mistaken for a personal message for any one person.

Because you do not have the faculty of knowing every single person intimally. But God does. Therefore, a part of the Word said at different times to different people can have a different personal message.

You might interpret this as a communication from God, but it is more easily explained as the result of circumstance and conscience.

Again, this equates to "what you say makes no sense from my perspective".
Also, I'm not saying God somewhat magically of forcefully made the priest ill just to relay a message for me; I'm saying that, given my particular disposition, it has a correlation to my life which leads me to interpret it as an incentive from God to improve in some areas. But it is never really exact; you can believe something is a sign from God or not, there is no foolproof way to know. Again, it's something based on faith.

So if you feel that some event is a sign from God, then it must be one. Right?

So if you feel that your family loves you, it must be true. Right?

The light turned red just as I approached, God must want me to slow down.

You could interpret it that way, if your personal subjective experience makes you inclined to do so. In my particular case, most red lights are just that - red lights. But - hypothetical situation, if I have been living in a hurry, spending no time with my family and with God, and I stop at a particular red light, I could take it as a sign I should stop to re-center my life around what matters and realy reflect about my priorities.

[McCulloch]

Going to Mass involves you being with other humans; at least one priest, other celebrants and observers. Christ is not literally there any more than the wine is literally blood.

We as Catholics do indeed believe Christ is physically there, that the wine becomes His actual blood.

Nice mind trick. Does the wine taste like blood? Will it clot? Could you use it in a transfusion? Evidently the wine does not become actual blood. You must use your imagination to believe that wine is blood. Just as you must use your imagination to perceive communications from God.

In your opinion, which is clearly different from my perspective; therefore, what you are arguing is "your POV makes no sense from my POV". Which is obvious. For those who do not believe in the existence of God, a relationship with Him can only be false and coming from one's imagination.

Not at all. I am trying to look at it from the point-of-view of evidence and logic. There is no evidence of a relationship with a real actual being. The relationship with God is logically no different from any other imaginary friend.

Loving my family involves doing things for them

No it doesn't. Love is a feeling; it involves nothing more than to feel it.

Love is more than a feeling. [Matthew 19:19 - "You shall love your neighbor as yourself.� can this possibly mean get a warm feeling towards your neighbor?; Matthew 22:37 - “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’"; John 15:13 - "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends." much more than a feeling, eh?; John 21:15 - "Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me more than these?� He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.� He said to him, “Tend My lambs.� - practical expression of love; Romans 12:10 - "Be devoted to one another in brotherly love; give preference to one another in honor;" - again love means more than a feeling; Romans 13:9 - "For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,� and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.�" - ditto; Galatians 5:6 - "faith working through love." - just as faith is more than just belief, love is more than just a feeling. ]

you can believe something is a sign from God or not, there is no foolproof way to know.

Again, it is quite different from a human relationship. Human relationships are not built on the kind of ambiguity you describe. When my wife says, "It is entirely up to you", I know with absolute certainty that I had better figure out what it is that she wants and do it her way.

So if you feel that some event is a sign from God, then it must be one. Right?

So if you feel that your family loves you, it must be true. Right?

If my family does not act in a way consistent with love, then they don't love me, no matter how I feel.

The light turned red just as I approached, God must want me to slow down.

You could interpret it that way, if your personal subjective experience makes you inclined to do so. In my particular case, most red lights are just that - red lights. But - hypothetical situation, if I have been living in a hurry, spending no time with my family and with God, and I stop at a particular red light, I could take it as a sign I should stop to re-center my life around what matters and really reflect about my priorities.

So this alleged communication with God involves imagining events as being messages from God and interpreting them in that light. OK.

[pmprcv]

Nice mind trick. Does the wine taste like blood? Will it clot? Could you use it in a transfusion?

After being consecrated, the wine and bread become the blood and body of Christ, and in Christian theology this act (called transubstantition - please look it up, as I can't explain it very well myself) is even described as mysterious - that's literally the word I've seen used to describe the transubstantiation. Mysterious in the sense that obviously it still look, tastes, etc like wine, but Christ makes Himself present through it.

You must use your imagination to believe that wine is blood. Just as you must use your imagination to perceive communications from God.

Oh, you are using the word "imagination" as sinonimal to a mental exercise; the way you defined it, you need imagination to believe that the Earth is round, and to believe your family loves you.

There is no evidence of a relationship with a real actual being.

That is not true from any POV; for those who do believe God your sentence is false for obvious reasons, and for those who don't, they can see people praying and attending mass, so there is the same amount of evidence of a relationship as there is for, say, a person communicating through letters or phone (in that you only see one person communicating).

Love is more than a feeling.

OH MY GOD THAT'S LIKE ONE OF MY TOP FAVOURITE SONGS EVER, LIKE ONE OF THE FIRST I LEARNED ON GUITAR MOTHER OF COINCIDENCES I HEAR IT LIKE 10 TIMES A DAY, WHAT THE
Ahem.

Matthew 19:19 - "You shall love your neighbor as yourself.� can this possibly mean get a warm feeling towards your neighbor?

Now you're just distorting my words; I never said love is a warm feeling. In fact, there are many kinds of love: fraternal love, matrimonious (is that a word?) love, etc. In this context love your neighbour means indeed to care for him, to look at him as you would yourself. The "practical" part comes as a consequence of this - not the other way around. So I maintain that love is a feeling.

"Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends." much more than a feeling, eh?

I never claimed love does not, as a consequence, make one act; but nowhere in any of your quotes is stated that love is anything more than a feeling.

You are arguing semantics and beating around the bush. One can do things for love - but that in no way means that love is anything else other than a feeling.

Again, it is quite different from a human relationship.

I have already explained how it is similar to a human relationship (in that it involves dialogue, spending time, etc). Of course there are many deep, fundamental differences. I apologise if I cause confusion.

So this alleged communication with God involves imagining events as being messages from God and interpreting them in that light. OK.

Wrong; again, please do not distort my words. It does not involve imagining events. It involves interpreting them according to one's personal and subjective experience.

Just like all atheists do. In the hipothetical situation of a red light, according to their personal and subjective experience, they would not consider it a sign. It all boils down to one's spirituality.

[bornofgod]

What does it mean to have a relationship with Christ? How do you know that you have a real, two way relationship?

You won't know that you're in Christ until you start speaking from Christ. Once you start speaking and writing from Christ, you will learn who you are and how we were created in Christ by our Father, the Creator of all things.

[McCulloch]

Nice mind trick. Does the wine taste like blood? Will it clot? Could you use it in a transfusion?

After being consecrated, the wine and bread become the blood and body of Christ, and in Christian theology this act (called transubstantition - please look it up, as I can't explain it very well myself) is even described as mysterious - that's literally the word I've seen used to describe the transubstantiation. Mysterious in the sense that obviously it still look, tastes, etc like wine, but Christ makes Himself present through it.

As I said, nice mind trick. The wine looks tastes and behaves in every way like wine. But the faithful are supposed to believe that when a priest utters the magic words, it is actually something else, blood. But not really blood, in the sense that you could use it in a transfusion or check it for Immunoglobulins, white cell count, and its ABO blood group type.

Oh, you are using the word "imagination" as sinonimal to a mental exercise; the way you defined it, you need imagination to believe that the Earth is round, and to believe your family loves you.

Of course imagination is useful. However, in order to believe that the earth is nearly spherical, one need only follow the evidence.

There is no evidence of a relationship with a real actual being.

That is not true from any POV; for those who do believe God your sentence is false for obvious reasons, and for those who don't, they can see people praying and attending mass, so there is the same amount of evidence of a relationship as there is for, say, a person communicating through letters or phone (in that you only see one person communicating).

The telephone is a bad analogy. When communicating with a phone, the other responds with language in real time. If the only form of communicating with other humans was through a one-way phone, you might be forgiven for not believing in the existence of other humans.

So this alleged communication with God involves imagining events as being messages from God and interpreting them in that light. OK.

Wrong; again, please do not distort my words. It does not involve imagining events. It involves interpreting them according to one's personal and subjective experience.

I did not intend to imply the it involved imaging events. I should have written, "So this alleged communication with God involves imagining that events that occur are messages from God and interpreting them in that light. "

[smalltownatheist]

Not to toot my own horn, but I covered this topic on my blog for Valentine's Day.[/url] In that post I shared this video by one of my favorite YouTubers, NonStampCollector:
[center][youtube][/youtube][/center]
It illustrates the obvious point that people are not having personal relationships with the same entity, simply because of the differing opinions on said entities wishes and acts.