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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Fri Feb 28, 2014 11:17 pm
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How Perfect?

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How perfect will the Jews have to be in order for God to remove the covenant curses and fulfill the promise to Abraham.

Or do you no longer believe in a literal restoration?

For perspective, Josiah is recorded as the most righteous king in the Jewish monarchy and he was killed in battle and the scepter was removed not long after.

Quote:
2 Kings 23:25
Neither before nor after Josiah was there a king like him who turned to the Lord as he did—with all his heart and with all his soul and with all his strength, in accordance with all the Law of Moses.


Is a supernatural intervention from God really expected to restore Jews to obedience of the Law?

Quote:

Ezekiel 36:25-27

New International Version (NIV)


25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:48 am
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Re: How Perfect?

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postroad wrote:

How perfect will the Jews have to be in order for God to remove the covenant curses and fulfill the promise to Abraham.

Or do you no longer believe in a literal restoration?

I never did -- but then, since Israel is once again a Jewish state after 2,000 years, it is arguable that a "literal restoration" has already happened -- or at least begun.

As for being "perfect" -- see below.
Quote:

For perspective, Josiah is recorded as the most righteous king in the Jewish monarchy and he was killed in battle and the scepter was removed not long after.

Quote:
2 Kings 23:25
Neither before nor after Josiah was there a king like him who turned to the Lord as he did—with all his heart and with all his soul and with all his strength, in accordance with all the Law of Moses.


Is a supernatural intervention from God really expected to restore Jews to obedience of the Law?

Quote:

Ezekiel 36:25-27

New International Version (NIV)


25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.


This entire post betrays a certain level of ignorance about Jewish teaching and tradition. Jews have never taught, Paul notwithstanding, that we have to fulfill every detail of the law perfectly. We believe that since God made us, He knows our limitations. We are expected to do the best we can, and when we do not, to seek forgiveness through repentance, prayer, and deeds of lovingkindness.

It is also astonishingly arrogant to assert that Jews NEED to be "restored" to obedience to the Law. Who appointed YOU Judge? The Jewish religion has CHANGED since the first century CE. In Jewish belief and teaching, it is SUPPOSED to change. If you don't approve -- well, that doesn't matter much, now does it? These matters are between us, and God. And you don't get to speak for Him any more than does bornofgod, thanks very much.

Don't bother to post a bunch of "proof texts" from the Bible -- not even the "Old Testament." The teachings and tenets of Judaism cannot be determined from an unaided surface reading of the Hebrew Bible. Some others, e.g. conservative Christians, may be horrified at that assertion. Sorry, but those objections do not matter to us, either. JEWS get to determine the teachings and practices of Jews. Like it or not, others just don't get a vote.

(And note the guidelines for this subforum: "This sub-forum assumes the ongoing validity of Judaism; anyone can post here, but it's not the place to discuss, for example, whether Christianity has supplanted Judaism or ought to.")

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:38 am
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Re: How Perfect?

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[Replying to post 2 by cnorman18]

You are being the arrogant one. not me.

What know? Jewish theology is no longer debatable by outsiders?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:42 pm
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Re: How Perfect?

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[Replying to postroad]

First, this is a DISCUSSION forum, not a DEBATE forum.

Second, if you want to DISCUSS Judaism, it would be advisable to learn something about it. Like many Christians, you know very little about the developments in the Jewish religion since the first century -- and even that, you know only through the distorted lens of Paul, who was NOT representative of the normative Judaism -- ANY of its schools of thought -- of even his own day.

The issue here is that you are questioning and lecturing Jews on the teachings of their own religion. Shall I tell you what the proper beliefs of Christians ought to be?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Sat Mar 01, 2014 2:19 pm
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Re: How Perfect?

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[Replying to post 4 by cnorman18]

If you bothered to look you would know that I identify as agnostic. So how exactly did the concept of perfect obedience evolve into "do the best you can"?

Because I can tell you that the texts do indicate perfect obedience and only sins committed in ignorance could be atoned for under the Law?

Or can God forgive and bless those who defiantly continue in disobedience?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:46 pm
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Re: How Perfect?

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[Replying to post 5 by postroad]

Like I said; the teachings and traditions of the Jewish religion are not to be found in the "Old Testament," so I don't particularly care WHAT texts you cite.

The Jewish religion has never, since Moses himself, taught that humans must fulfill the law perfectly and in every detail. No, not ever. Do you recall that Moses was a murderer, and the paradigmatic King, David himself, was both a murderer and an adulterer? Yet somehow they both obtained forgiveness. According to your theory, that would have been impossible.

Perfection was the ideal, but there were never any penalties -- like Hell and damnation -- placed upon not achieving it.

Like I said; before you start criticizing and questioning the teachings of a religion that is not your own, you ought to try to learn something about it.

Anything else?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Sat Mar 01, 2014 6:26 pm
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Re: How Perfect?

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[Replying to post 6 by cnorman18]

It is interesting that David got away with premeditated murder and adultery. Crimes for which the Law demanded death at the hands of the assembly.

In fact the assembly was also in defiance of the Law for not stoning the offender.

That means that if God forgave David he put David above the Law and above the assembly.

Also of note is that the scepter was taken from Israel and no Messiah has ever returned it and never will.

As you have pointed out the OT is a fable.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 8: Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:46 pm
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Re: How Perfect?

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[Replying to post 7 by postroad]

But I thought you were insisting that the texts demanded perfect obedience....?

You seem determined to stand by your prejudices and unsupported assumptions, judging even the Biblical text itself by your own bizarre standards. I don't have time to conduct a seminar on how to read the Hebrew Bible and understand some of our most basic teachings, not to mention the relative authority of Council, King and Prophet (you seem to have forgotten Nathan, who was part of the David narrative too), and also not to mention the FACT that the Bible is LITERATURE and not HISTORY.

Never mind. You've already decided that you already know all you need to know. "My mind is made up, don't confuse me with the facts."

Okay, I won't try any further. Have a good day.

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