The Problem with the Problem of Evil

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williamryan
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The Problem with the Problem of Evil

Post #1

Post by williamryan »

I'm new to this site. I've surfed around a bit on this topic, and I've constantly run into incantations of the problem of evil. I've seen Juliod, among others, use it over and over. I hope this thread will isolate the real issues of contention and shed some light on this often misused and abused argument. I have learned much from William Lane Craig and Alvin Plantinga's writings on this matter, and much of what I say is from their writings.

There are two basic versions of the problem of evil: deductive and probalistic (aka inductive). The propontent of the deductive problem of evil attempts to show that the existence of Deductive looks like this:

1. If a God exists who is omnipotent (all powerful) and omnibenevolent (all loving),
2. and evil exists,
3. then God cannot be omnipotent or omnibenevolent.

This version of the argument has been almost completely abandoned by professional philosophers today. It lives on in its popular level form and is made immortal by producing this corpse of an argument between non-philosopher friends. Alvin Plantinga (a preeminent Christian philosopher at Notre Dame and past president of the Amer. Philosophical Assoc., which is the main association of professional philosophers) showed that this version of the problem of evil is logically untenable.

Alvin Plantinga presented a "defense" as opposed to a theodicy. A theodicy is an effort to explain why God would allow evil to exist. A defense, however, merely seeks to show that the atheist has failed to carry their case that evil is incompatible with God's existence. In other words, a sucessful defense with show that the atheist has failed to show that evil is logically incompatible with God's existence, while leaving us in the dark as to why God allows evil.

The deductive argument was destroyed because, in short, the atheist has assumed an overwhelming burden. Premises (1) and (2), above, are at not explicitly, logically inconsistent. An explicit, logically inconsistent statement would be that "God is blue, but God is not blue."

If the atheist thinks that premises (1) and (2) are implicitly inconsistent, then he or she must be assuming some hidden premise(s) that would make the inconsistency explicit. Those premises seem to be these:

(3) If God is omnipotent, then God can create any world that God desires.
(4) If God is omnibenevolent, then God prefers a world without evil over a world with evil.

Hidden premise (3) then is the view that if God is omnipotent, he could create a world that were all humans freely choose to do the right thing. This world would then be free of all moral evil: no lying, no cheating, no murder etc. So, because we can conceive of a world in which everyone freely chooses every time to do the right thing, and God is all-powerful, then God must be able to create it.

This links with hidden premise (4) because if God was powerful enough to create this type of world, then he certaintly would because he is all-loving. In other words, if God had the choice between creating a flawed, evil world like this one and creating one w/o any evil, then God would most certainly chose the latter. Otherwise, God would be evil to prefer that people experience pain and suffering when God could have given them happiness and prosperity.

In David Hume's Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion, he summarized this last point when he asked: "Is he willing to prevent evil, but not able? then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? whence then is evil?"

Plantinga and others object to hidden premise (3) with what he calls the free will defense. It goes like this: if it is possible that humans have complete freedom to make choices, then (3) and (4) are not necessarily true. If humans have freedom to make choices, then it is not necessarily true that God could have created another world in which no evil exists but people have complete freedom of choice. This is because God's omnipotence doesn't imply that God can do logical impossibilities like create a round triangle or make a married bachelor, or make someone freely chose to do something.

All God can really do is create a world in which a person may freely chose to act and then allow that person to make the free choice. This implies that there are possible worlds that are not feasible for God to create. Just like its not "feasible" for God to create a round triangle or a married bachelor. This does not impinge on God's omnipotence though, because God cannot be impinged for not being able to do a logical impossibility. Another example how how non-sensical this is, is for someone to say that God is not all-powerful because he cannot exist and non exist at the same time.

So, suppose that in every feasible world that God could create, free creatures sometimes choice evil. Here it is us, the creature, not God that is responsible for evil and God can do nothing to prevent their ability to choose the evil, apart from refusing to create such a world at all. Therefore it is at least possible that feasible world that God could create that contains free human beings is a world that has evil in it.

I'm about to say something that will seem crazy and you might be tempted to label be a total fundamentalist and crazy, but please keep reading past the next few sentences. As for natural evils (i.e. earthquakes, tornadoes, etc.) it is possible that these evils could result from demonic activity. Demons could have freedom just like humans and it is possible that God could not preclude natural evil w/o removing demons' free will. You might be thinking, "That is ridiculous!" and you might even think that it is a spurious, frivolous argument. But only let this thought last a few moments lest you confuse the deductive argument with the probabilistic arguments. I admit, ascribing all evil to demonic beings is improbable, but that is completely irrevelant to the deductive version of this argument. Probability only enters the calculus in the probalistic argument. All I must do here is show that such an explanation (both for the moral evil and natural evil) is merely possible.

In summary, hidden premise (3), that an omnipotent God can create any world he desires, is plainly not necessarily true. Therefore, the atheist's argument on this ground alone fails, which causes the whole argument to fail. But we can go further, what about hidden premise (4).

What about (4), the hidden premise that if God is all-loving then he would prefer a world w/o evil over a world with evil. Again, this is not necessarily true. By analogy, we allow pain and suffering to exist in a person's life to bring about some greater good. Every parent knows this. There comes a time when parents cannot protect their child from every mishap, or when the parent must discipline the child so the child matures. Similarly, God could permit suffering in our lives to build us or test us or others and to achieve some greater good. Therefore, premise (4) is also not necessarily true. And again the argument fails, this time on totally separate grounds. Notice that the atheist must show that both (3) and (4) are true, while the theist merely need show one is false.

If I may be permitted to read some of your minds, at this point you might be thinking, "Even if there is no inconsistency between God and evil, surely the existence of God is incompatible with the amount and kinds of evils that actually exist." What good, you might ask, could possibly come from a pregnant mother in the wrong part of town that is struck down by a stray bullet fired from a gang member's 9mm?

This as its own hidden premise, that God cannot have morally sufficient reasons to allow the amount and kinds of evil that exist. But again, this is not necessarily true, and all I must show is that it is possible that God has a morally sufficient reason. As terrible as some things about the world are, people generally agree that life is worth living, from which we could surmise that there is much more good that evil in the world, regardless of the amount and kind of evil actually present. As for the kinds of evil, it is possible that God has some overriding reasons to permit the kinds of evil that occur.

Again, you might think that that seems pretty unlikely. But this would confuse the deductive problem with the probabilistic problem again. To refute the deductive version, the theist doesn't have to suggest a likely solution--all he or she must do is suggest a possible solution.

In summary, the atheist assumes at least two hidden premises in the deductive version of this argument. He or she must prove both of those premises for this version to be true. I have shown that both of those hidden premises can be indenpendently refuted.

Further, because it is the atheist who claims to note a contradicition w/in the theist's truth claims, it is the atheist that bears the burden of proof to show that there is no possible world in which premises (1) and (2) are true. That is an incredibly heavy burden, which the atheist ultimately cannot shoulder. The deductive version of the problem of evil is impotent.


Probabilistic Version

After the deductive argument was destroyed, most who want to use the problem of evil (POE) to show that God cannot be all loving or all powerful moved to the probabilistic argument. The inductive version admits that it is possible for the traditional God of Christianity and evil to coexist, but it is highly improbable for them to coexist. The argument looks like this:

1. If a god exists who is all loving and all powerful,
2. yet evil exists,
3. then it is highly improbable or unlikely that a god exists who is all loving or all powerful.

Let me make a few observations. Notice that even if the Christian granted this argument, this argument does not show that God does not exist. It is, however, a step along that path. At most, this argument can claim that the type of God posited by traditional Christianity does not exist. Further, this argument cannot show that God is not all loving and not all powerful; it can only show that one of this is incorrect. But this is all only the case if we grant this argument, and there are powerful reasons not to grant it.[/u]

Given that this post is way too long already, I'll be brief here, and will flesh out my comments on this version as other posts come in (if anybody actually gets this far into the novel :)

(1) Given the full scope of the evidence for God's existence, it is far more likely than not that God exists.

(2) Because of our finite nature, we are not in a good position to asses with a sufficient confidence that God has no morally sufficient reasons for permitting the evils that occur.

(3) Christianity entails doctrines that increase the probability that God and evil coexist

I look forward to your comments.

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Post #2

Post by upallnite »

"almost completely abandoned by professional philosophers today" Your argument from authority would be better if you did not use a Christian philosopher(Alvin Plantinga). It is not a surprise to anyone that a Christian would believe in the existence of god. Perhaps I would be more willing to except this argument if you gave an Agnostic philosopher.

You also keep claiming victory before anyone has been given a chance to respond. Perhaps this is a little premature.

The deductive problem.

You claim that there are hidden premises. It appears to me that they are definitions(Your 3&4). They are only hidden if you lack the access to any way to look them up. It is apparent that you do not lack access to such sources. Therefore they are not hidden from you or me.

Your argument seems to rely on limiting the power of god. You claim that he cannot make logical impossibilities yet as a Christian you believe he made a dead living Jesus. If god cannot create a round triangle then he is not all powerful. If he can create a round triangle then he can create a world without evil that we have freewill. You must now choose, is your god all powerful or not?

Freewill without evil? Yes. Perhaps I should draw a picture of what I am thinking of. Your wife makes Apple Pie and Cherrie Pie for desert. Now you have a choice of two really good things. There are no other choices like burnt toast. You now have freewill with out the evil burnt toast. Enjoy.

Your demon argument seems crazy to me. I even read it several times. Why would a good god want to create something that only causes evil? I view that argument as just an attempt to shift blame away from god.

Premise 4? If I could save my children from pain and allow them their freedom I would. But I cant so I have to allow them to make bad choices sometime. But an all powerful god can. Your parent argument fails because parents are not all powerful like god is claimed to be.

You claim that god has a moral reason for allowing evil but you give no possible reasons that god would have. You might fall in the same boat as me and cannot find this moral reason. Perhaps you should elaborate on this possible moral reason some.

Burden of proof? 1 is what the Christian claims to be true(god is all powerful and all good). I do not make such a claim. If you want to argue that god does not exist I will not stop you. 2 is evident. If you do not agree with 2 then I can give examples. I think we both agree with 2.

CLIFF NOTES:
You are limiting the power of god, making an argument to authority, claiming a definition is "hidden", shifting blame, making a false analogy, claim a moral reason without an example, and imply that the Atheist has to prove god exists before we prove he does not exist.

Perhaps we can argue the Probabilistic Version in another thread. I think this one will be long enough to keep us busy for a little bit.

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Post #3

Post by harvey1 »

William,

Welcome to the forum!

Well, there's some things wrong with the probablistic argument just as Craig and Plantinga present it. I myself am a Christian, but I do believe that the problem of evil requires that we think of God slightly differently, and without those changes, the problem of evil is crushing. Your argument about demons causing natural evils is a little medieval. Are you suggesting that the 2004 tsunami is caused by a demon versus the Sumatra earthquake? Has the laws of physics taken a vacation in your view?

If you try to realistically address the Tsunami 2004 disaster where many people died and lost loved ones, I think it is much more difficult to say that "there are powerful reasons not to grant" that God wouldn't sit back and allow tremendous evil if God were as how many Christians conceive of God.
People say of the last day, that God shall give judgment. This is true. But it is not true as people imagine. Every man pronounces his own sentence; as he shows himself here in his essence, so will he remain everlastingly -- Meister Eckhart

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to harvey

Post #4

Post by williamryan »

A Quick response to Harvey1

Thank you for your welcome and for your response.
Your argument about demons causing natural evils is a little medieval. Are you suggesting that the 2004 tsunami is caused by a demon versus the Sumatra earthquake? Has the laws of physics taken a vacation in your view?
I tried to be very deliberate about how I worded this bit. I personally do not believe that demons are the cause of all the natural evil in the world. The point is that that is possible. That is all that is necessary to show that that the deductive problem of evil is false.
If you try to realistically address the Tsunami 2004 disaster where many people died and lost loved ones, I think it is much more difficult to say that "there are powerful reasons not to grant" that God wouldn't sit back and allow tremendous evil if God were as how many Christians conceive of God.
.

I mostly agree with this statement. This statement, however, is a question directed towards the probabilistic version of the POE and its important to keep them separate.

May response is basically two-fold: (1) you point, and its definitely a good one, is about the amount and kinds of evil in the world, specifically the terrible effects of the tsunami. Again, your assumption is that God cannot have morally sufficient reasons for permitting that amount and kind of evil. What is your basis for this assumption? I say that it is far more likely than not that finite beings like ourselves fail to grasp the "big picture." We cannot tell God, we that's just not a good reason, because we cannot see the whole picture.

Second, your comment brings up an important point about this issue: the emotional version of the problem of evil. If the deductive version is shown untenable, and the probabilistic version shown improbable, then there will still be evil in the world that causes us to wonder why? We we still have to deal emotionally with evil, and there are many who would reject God still on an emotional level.
I think it is much more difficult to say that "there are powerful reasons not to grant" that God wouldn't sit back and allow tremendous evil if God were as how many Christians conceive of God.
What kind of powerful reasons would you suggest? Are you arguing in the deductive version, or the probabilistic version?

A Response to upallnite

Thank you for your response and your thoughtful comments.
"almost completely abandoned by professional philosophers today" Your argument from authority would be better if you did not use a Christian philosopher(Alvin Plantinga). It is not a surprise to anyone that a Christian would believe in the existence of god. Perhaps I would be more willing to except this argument if you gave an Agnostic philosopher.
I understand your concern, and I have a few comments about this. First, let me say a few things about Plantinga. He was the Amer. Philo. Assoc. president, which he voted on by all members of the APA, Christian and non-christian. He is widely respected as one of the foremost philosophers today, by christians and non-christians. Second, the fact that he is a Christian is irrelevant when using him as authority for the proposition that the deductive argument has been abandonded. That is a factual statement about the state of the philosophical profession (which Plantinga is certaintly more well situated to address than you or I), and the statement is not tied to being a theist or not.
You also keep claiming victory before anyone has been given a chance to respond. Perhaps this is a little premature.
Good point. I'm assuming that when you say I claim victory is when I say things like, "I have shown" or "the deductive argument is impotent." I use this language in the strict debating since. That is, I use that language as a means of summarizing my points and indicating that I believe I have made a cogent case. I don't use that language to indicate that the case is closed and that no one need bother even responding. Perhaps I should use a different style of summarizing for this media. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.
You claim that there are hidden premises. It appears to me that they are definitions(Your 3&4). They are only hidden if you lack the access to any way to look them up. It is apparent that you do not lack access to such sources. Therefore they are not hidden from you or me.
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. When I say "hidden premise" I'm using that term in its logical sense, which means that it is a premise the arguer relies on but does not make explicit. I don't mean that the premise is somehow mysteriously beyond our ability to discern or understand..quite the opposite. Hidden premise just means that the arguer has failed to make explicit a premise that he or she has relied on in forming their syllogism.
Your argument seems to rely on limiting the power of god. You claim that he cannot make logical impossibilities yet as a Christian you believe he made a dead living Jesus. If god cannot create a round triangle then he is not all powerful. If he can create a round triangle then he can create a world without evil that we have freewill. You must now choose, is your god all powerful or not?


Upallnite is responding to my portion of the argument where I indicated that God is not required to make a round square or a married bachelor. Those things are logical impossibilities and God's failure to be able to make those things cannot impugn his omnipotence. But upallnite, you have responded with a conclusion, not an argument. You have responded with a more eloquent version of "nuh-uh." What is your response to my argument that saying that God must be able to create a married bachelor is as non-sensical as saying that God is not all-powerful because God cannot exist and not exist at the same time?
Freewill without evil? Yes. Perhaps I should draw a picture of what I am thinking of. Your wife makes Apple Pie and Cherrie Pie for desert. Now you have a choice of two really good things. There are no other choices like burnt toast. You now have freewill with out the evil burnt toast. Enjoy.
I choose......um....apple pie! :) Your argument presents a basic logical fallacy. Your argument, as it stands in our world as we understand it, is correct. But if you are trying to make an argument that God could have created a world where choosing burnt toast is not even an option (b/c toast is never burnt) then I think you've failed. In your hypothetical pie world, I can choose apple or cherry, both "good" choices. But how can you know that apple or cherry pie are "good"? Good has against what? As against burnt toast? But how can you make that comparison in your hypothetical pie world unless you know about burnt toast, which would be impossible in a world were burnt toast doesn't exist.

The other problem with your argument is that what if I choose not to eat either pie. Don't both pies go to waste and is that not an evil. This shows a second problem with your argument: even assuming that I could know that I had 2 "good" options before me, must I choose either or can I refrain from choosing. If I refrain from choosing, which you must posit my being able to do as a free moral actor, then I actualize no good at all.
Your demon argument seems crazy to me. I even read it several times. Why would a good god want to create something that only causes evil? I view that argument as just an attempt to shift blame away from god
Thank you for your willingness to try to understand my point. I knew I'd catch some flak for this, but my point is that it is merely possible, not that it is likely. Remember, we're dealing with the deductive here. I personally don't believe that demons cause earthquakes, but I can still use that argument when creating a "Defense" (as opposed to a theodicy, see my earlier post) against the POE. Again, all I have to show is that that is possible not that it is likely.
Premise 4? If I could save my children from pain and allow them their freedom I would. But I cant so I have to allow them to make bad choices sometime. But an all powerful god can. Your parent argument fails because parents are not all powerful like god is claimed to be.
I don't mean to be pendantic or harsh, but again you have merely stated a conclusion not an argument. What is your basis for saying that God can all people their freedom of choice while keeping people from pain?
You claim that god has a moral reason for allowing evil but you give no possible reasons that god would have. You might fall in the same boat as me and cannot find this moral reason. Perhaps you should elaborate on this possible moral reason some.
This is not true. I did give possible reasons. The main possible reason is that God allows evil is that to not allow a certain amount or kind would inhibit people's free choice. Again, this is a defense, not a theodicy. So if I'm successful, then we know that evil may coexist alongside of the traditional Christian God, but we wouldn't know why evil existed.
Burden of proof? 1 is what the Christian claims to be true(god is all powerful and all good). I do not make such a claim. If you want to argue that god does not exist I will not stop you. 2 is evident. If you do not agree with 2 then I can give examples. I think we both agree with 2.
Upallnite is (if think) referring to premises (1) and (2). Premise one is that God is all powerful and all good. And premise (2) is that evil exists. Historically, atheist and agnostics have taken (1) and (2) and moved to surmise that (1) and (2) are logically incompatible with each other. Upallnite, I agree with all of your quote. But that the truth of the premises was not what I was arguing about. I was arguing about whether those premises, on their face, were inconsistent. I think most would agree that just reading the words (w/o inserting premises (3) and (4)) that there is nothing about premise (1) and (2) that is explicitly a contradiction. Enter premises (3) and (4).

I look forward to both of you guys' responses and others.

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Post #5

Post by Scrotum »

Oh PLease Lord Strike me Down, i could just end this entire topic by pointing out some truths, but i wont, i just point out some obvious flaws.


"Good" and "Evil" are HUMAN SUBJECTIVES. By now, atlest Harvey should know what subjective means as everyone have told him so many times. But in any case, i quote a standard dictionary definition as

Subjective= Taking place within the mind and modified by individual bias..


That means its Your Opinion, and no truth can be applied to it. If we would pretend that the Christian God actually existed, and using HUMAN standard definition of "good and evil" (that would be, the majorities opinion about it), The Christian God himself would be classified as Evil. So how do you want to do this?

Evil exists because God exist? Or God is Evil, hence Evil does not exist? Do tell.

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Post #6

Post by harvey1 »

williamryan wrote:Again, your assumption is that God cannot have morally sufficient reasons for permitting that amount and kind of evil. What is your basis for this assumption?
That isn't exactly my assumption. My assumption is that a moral person would try to prevent suffering as much as is physically possible, and that if a moral person had all power to prevent suffering, this person would do so. Given that there is a tremendous amount of suffering in the world, most of which is not caused by free will acts of men, therefore one or more of the definitions of these properties (omnipotency, omnibenevolency, being a person, etc.) is suspect.
William wrote:I say that it is far more likely than not that finite beings like ourselves fail to grasp the "big picture." We cannot tell God, we that's just not a good reason, because we cannot see the whole picture.
The problem with this though is that most Christians claim that God is a person who is all-good, and all-powerful. This can be possibly true if the world is purely evil. (E.g., God gave free moral agency to Satan, and Satan shocked the heavenly world and made a world which is purely evil.) However, the claim that God is all-good and all-powerful is based on a claim of knowledge, but there's very good physical evidence that this claim to knowledge is unwarranted. The probablistic argument of PoE attacks this claim of God as a person being all-good, all-powerful as warrantable. The probablistic PoE argument says that we are not warranted in this claim at all, and in fact we should draw another conclusion--namely that God probably does not exist.

My view is that the probablistic problem of evil argument is right about certain beliefs about God's properties to be unwarranted and untenable, but it is not right about God not existing. The probablistic argument is not strong enough to counter the evidence for God's existence.
William wrote:Second, your comment brings up an important point about this issue: the emotional version of the problem of evil. If the deductive version is shown untenable, and the probabilistic version shown improbable, then there will still be evil in the world that causes us to wonder why? We we still have to deal emotionally with evil, and there are many who would reject God still on an emotional level.
I think we can ignore this argument since it has no metaphysical implications which is what the probablistic problem of evil argument is trying to show.
People say of the last day, that God shall give judgment. This is true. But it is not true as people imagine. Every man pronounces his own sentence; as he shows himself here in his essence, so will he remain everlastingly -- Meister Eckhart

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Post #7

Post by juliod »

This is because God's omnipotence doesn't imply that God can do logical impossibilities like create a round triangle or make a married bachelor, or make someone freely chose to do something.
There's a lot of words in the original article that add up to no resolution of the Problem of Evil.

Again, we see that the theists don't (or won't) understand what "omni" means. If god is infinitely powerful then he can do anything with no constraints that it be "logically" possible.

If god were omnipotent, we could say:

1) God can create a rock so heavy that he can't lift it, and

2) God can lift that rock.

If you think those two claims conflict, then you don't understand "omnipotence".

These defenses against the Problem of Evil only show that concepts like omnipotence and omnibenevolence are nonsensical. And so any being claimed to have those properties is equally nonsensical.

DanZ

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Post #8

Post by williamryan »

Harvey1 Wrote:
williamryan wrote:
Again, your assumption is that God cannot have morally sufficient reasons for permitting that amount and kind of evil. What is your basis for this assumption?
That isn't exactly my assumption. My assumption is that a moral person would try to prevent suffering as much as is physically possible, and that if a moral person had all power to prevent suffering, this person would do so. Given that there is a tremendous amount of suffering in the world, most of which is not caused by free will acts of men, therefore one or more of the definitions of these properties (omnipotence, omnibenevolency, being a person, etc.) is suspect.
If I understand you correctly, your argument looks like this:

1. A moral person would try to prevent suffering as much as possible
2. If a person is all-powerful, and moral, then this person would prevent as much evil in the world as possible.
3. God is a moral person and all-powerful
4. There is lots of suffering in the world today, mostly caused by natural evil.
5. Therefore, God cannot be either moral (all-loving?) or all-powerful.

I don't see how this is any different from the way I formulated the argument in my first post, just that you have made hidden premises (3) and (4) explicit. Accordingly, you would need to show that it is not possible for God to have a morally sufficient reason for allowing the evil (or the amount and kinds of evil) that we see to exist. You must also show that it is not possible for God to be all-powerful and yet evil as we know it exist. IMO, this is an overwhelming burden for you. Do you have any arguments in support of your premises that address these issues?

Harvey1 Wrote:
Given that there is a tremendous amount of suffering in the world, most of which is not caused by free will acts of men, therefore one or more of the definitions of these properties (omnipotency, omnibenevolency, being a person, etc.) is suspect.
I have to disagree with you here about natural evil being more proflic than moral evil. I can't possibly see how you could justify that statement. The number of people who have been killed in wars, raped, murdered, abused, lied to, fill in the blank is far more than those who have fell victim to natural evil like tornadoes or earthquakes etc.

The only reason I point this out is because I sense that you're trying to end run my argument about libertarian freedom by positing that the evil we see is more a result of natural evil than moral evil. Even if that is granted (if that's what you're arguing, and please forgive me for presuming to pick your brain) the defense against the PoE stands. For if I can show that even some evil is allowed because of libertarian freedom then the deductive version disappears.

Harvey1 wrote:
My view is that the probablistic problem of evil argument is right about certain beliefs about God's properties to be unwarranted and untenable, but it is not right about God not existing. The probablistic argument is not strong enough to counter the evidence for God's existence.
I completely agree.

Harvey1 wrote:
William wrote:
I say that it is far more likely than not that finite beings like ourselves fail to grasp the "big picture." We cannot tell God, we that's just not a good reason, because we cannot see the whole picture.



The problem with this though is that most Christians claim that God is a person who is all-good, and all-powerful. This can be possibly true if the world is purely evil. (E.g., God gave free moral agency to Satan, and Satan shocked the heavenly world and made a world which is purely evil.)
I don't understand what you mean by this. The traditional Christian position on the nature of God is not that god is a person, but rather God has the qualities of personhood (i.e. love, a relational nature, etc.). Further, the traditional Christian position is not that the world is purely evil and not that Satan created it. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. The traditional Christian position is that God created the world and all that is in it, which was then corrupted by humans.

However, the claim that God is all-good and all-powerful is based on a claim of knowledge, but there's very good physical evidence that this claim to knowledge is unwarranted. The probablistic argument of PoE attacks this claim of God as a person being all-good, all-powerful as warrantable. The probablistic PoE argument says that we are not warranted in this claim at all, and in fact we should draw another conclusion--namely that God probably does not exist.
What is the "very good evidence" against the proposition that God is all-powerful and all-loving? Further, I think you're misusing the term "warrant." I have never seen warrant used in conjunction wit the probabilistic argument. I'm interested to see who you propose to do so. But i suggest you start another thread limited to an epistemic look at the PoE, we have quite enough to deal with here already.

A Response to Scrotum:

Scrotum Wrote:
Oh PLease Lord Strike me Down, i could just end this entire topic by pointing out some truths, but i wont, i just point out some obvious flaws.
These types of melo-dramatic statements are not helpful in debates. They are not in an spirit that lends itself towards pursuit of the truth. Its unfortunate that you started your post this way.

Please do end this post by "pointing out" some truths. Please enlighten us all, along with the rest of the professional philosophical community.

As far as the substance of your post: are you saying that there is no absolute truth? It seems like you're saying that people can never talk about good or evil because those terms can only be defined in the individuals' mind. A test: is it "good" to walk down the street and pick the most attactive woman and then rape her? If that is bad, then doesn't that get us to the proposition that claims about "good" are not completely subjective?

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Post #9

Post by harvey1 »

williamryan wrote:I don't see how this is any different from the way I formulated the argument in my first post, just that you have made hidden premises (3) and (4) explicit.
I'm not trying to formulate the argument back to a deductive argument. Rather, I'm only stating that God probably doesn't have all the properties that many Christians believe to be the case (e.g., God's description is exactly like a loving Father watching over all humanity...).
William wrote:Accordingly, you would need to show that it is not possible for God to have a morally sufficient reason for allowing the evil (or the amount and kinds of evil) that we see to exist.
The probablistic argument doesn't have to commit to that. All the probablistic argument must show to cause us to re-interpret our view of God as being a watching father figure having all-power is that this probably isn't the case. It shows that by demonstrating that a loving father would have to have a strange sense of morality to sit back and watch one of their children die or experience great pain (or both) when a human being (even an evil person) could help them if they knew if such a person were in pain. Showing the non-existence of the Christian God is much harder since the probablistic argument would have to provide that all forms of the Christian God do not exist. Which just isn't possible, I think.

Just as a clarification, I'm not saying the Christian God doesn't exist. I believe the Christian God to exist, but I think that many Christians have a conception of God that makes God out to be a tyrant. (E.g., "God answered my prayer to help me pay my rent, but God allowed a person I cared for deeply to suffer greatly before they died.") God, I think, is obviously under many more constraints than just logical impossibilities that you mentioned. Also, God as you suggested, is not a person, I think, at least not in the sense that most Christians conceive of God. (I suppose "most Christians" is tough to justify, but that's my subjective experience anyway.)
William wrote:
Given that there is a tremendous amount of suffering in the world, most of which is not caused by free will acts of men, therefore one or more of the definitions of these properties (omnipotency, omnibenevolency, being a person, etc.) is suspect.
I have to disagree with you here about natural evil being more proflic than moral evil. I can't possibly see how you could justify that statement. The number of people who have been killed in wars, raped, murdered, abused, lied to, fill in the blank is far more than those who have fell victim to natural evil like tornadoes or earthquakes etc.
That's true. However, what I have in mind is natural diseases (e.g., cancer, heart attacks, etc.), disabilities (e.g., blindness, deafness, etc.), and just getting old and feeble so that many tragic things happen to many people as they age (e.g., broken hips, arthritis, etc.). You can't blame these on moral evils of people per se (unless, I suppose, you want to blame it on the "sins of the fathers visiting themselves onto the sons and daughters" or the original sin--but then you can account for natural disasters with the original sin too).
William wrote:The only reason I point this out is because I sense that you're trying to end run my argument about libertarian freedom by positing that the evil we see is more a result of natural evil than moral evil. Even if that is granted (if that's what you're arguing, and please forgive me for presuming to pick your brain)...


Well, if we looked only at libertarian freedom, then the argument for a different view of God is much more muddled. For example, a cruel person can always say that someone deserved to die of AIDS because of their homosexual sins, but that in my opinion isn't a good argument for thinking that we shouldn't change our view of God because of these human induced evils. Someone might insist that I don't know what God is really like, so I have no way to judge. That's why the argument becomes muddled. It's better to deal with issues where moral agency has no apparent reason for the suffering (unless someone's prepared to say that God causes events to punish people, e.g., the Flood), but I'm assuming that you aren't making that argument for escaping the reasons why we can probably say that God is not exactly a loving father watching over people and allowing them to suffer.
William wrote:I don't understand what you mean by this. The traditional Christian position on the nature of God is not that god is a person, but rather God has the qualities of personhood (i.e. love, a relational nature, etc.).
I agree that there's controversy on this subject, but I don't think that this is how most modern Christians conceive of God. I think most people see God as an individual. I certainly think that both Craig and Plantinga have this view of God as an individual. Craig, I know, believes that God is a person living in time. I know that Plantinga believes that God is as much a person as any human living. I find these kind of positions very problematic because of the PoE (probablistic argument).
William wrote:What is the "very good evidence" against the proposition that God is all-powerful and all-loving?
It's in the papers everyday. There's a lot of bad stuff that happens. If there were a Superman among us, that person would be really busy in stopping evil. Now, maybe God would strike them down as being evil because they are trying to stop God's plan of allowing evil to exist in the world, but I don't think God would strike someone down for doing good, do you? It seems to me that God wants us to do good. It would be quite contradictory for God to want humanity to do good, if God really wanted evil to happen. Therefore, God probably has more limitations on the divine hand that don't limit human beings, or wouldn't limit a Superman type individual. I think the probablistic argument leads us to at least grant that if God wants a better world, then there must be restrictions on God that prevent God from bringing about that better world in the speed that a Superman could bring it about. Are you prepared to say that God doesn't want a better world? If not, then why does God urge Christians to try and make it a better world?

As for the epistemic argument, I think that's what the probablistic PoE argument is. It is an epistemic argument about what we ought to believe about God. The deductive argument tells us what we must believe about God, and therefore is an ontological argument. Since we already established that it is possible that God could be all-good, and all-powerful in a possible world, therefore we can't address what God is, only what we are warranted to think of God as probably being (e.g., not omipotent, not existing, etc.). Any argument we make has to be an epistemic approach which we can later argue is how God actually is. (That is, our epistemic approach can be the basis for an ontological argument that argues for theological realism of our epistemology.)
People say of the last day, that God shall give judgment. This is true. But it is not true as people imagine. Every man pronounces his own sentence; as he shows himself here in his essence, so will he remain everlastingly -- Meister Eckhart

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Post #10

Post by Scrotum »

A test: is it "good" to walk down the street and pick the most attactive woman and then rape her? If that is bad, then doesn't that get us to the proposition that claims about "good" are not completely subjective?
Yes, I think is Good to do this. And Harvey think its Bad.....

So.... Have you understood what SUBJECTIVE means now? Or maybe not? I even GAVE YOU A QUOTE FROM A DICTIONARY to explain it, as i know some kind of people do not understand the word.


Good and Bad ARE COMPLETELY subjective. I is YOUR OPINION, you need o know this, this is the NATURE of the words "GOOD" and "BAD". The standards we have in our society today is based on practical logic, We dont allow murder as it makes our society unstable, we dont allow rape as i is an attack on a person.

BUT IT IS NOT WRONG, you can prompt for murder all you want, you can prompt for rape all you want, it is NEVER "Wrong". But people can have an SUBJECTIVE OPINION ABOUT IT, and this will in general be, that you are a Bad person. But SOME may think you as a GOOD person. Do you understand? I think i made it very easy now. But to make it even more clear to you;


Rape, Murder, Theft is not Bad. But you may have an opinion (personal) about it being bad, Which makes i bad: FOR YOU !!!


The reasons for it being considered "Bad" in our current society, is because of practical logic. Woman and Blacks where not worth anything when Christianity had its iron rule, does this STILL make them bad? (They where according to the CHRISTIANS).



TO HARVEY:
Just as a clarification, I'm not saying the Christian God doesn't exist. I believe the Christian God to exist, but I think that many Christians have a conception of God that makes God out to be a tyrant.
Harvey, is this True? If so, Is this the God in the Holy Bible (The only Christian i know about), or your tweaked version that complies with facts such as the Egyptian dynasties and China?

Finally he comes clean, YAY!!!

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