A place for good non-believers

[lostguest]

Apologists often say that God doesn't send non-believers to hell, they send themselves by not wanting to be with God. But if that is the case then non-believers don't want to go to hell either and yet they supposedly end up there anyway. So, why wouldn't God create a place for people who are otherwise just as good as believers but whose only "sin" was not believing or accepting God? Why would God create only two options in which one of them "punishes" equally people who do really evil things and people who may actually be better human beings than many Christians but simply do not believe in God.
To me it's the equivalent of someone inviting people to his birthday party and whoever decides to come will have lots of fun, food and everything else but whoever refuses the invitation gets sent to a North Korean prison for life.

[Bust Nak]

Because there is no such thing as a "good" person apart from God....

Then let me rephrase the question in the OP.
Why wouldn't God create a nice place for people who are otherwise just as sinful as believers other than the sin of blasphemy in the sense that we do not accepting God?

Those who reject Christ commit the only unforgivable sin -- refusing to be saved and sanctified by the Lord, choosing to remain sinners, refusing to be recreated as good in their very being.

It's blasphemy against the Holy Spirit that is unforgivable.

And God did create a place for such people. The Bible refers to it as the lake of fire. And yes, people end up there by their own choice. I don't quite understand why atheists get so upset about the idea of hell. After all, they haven't wanted anything to do with God in this life. Why are they upset at the fact that he confirms that choice in the next?

Hence the question in the OP. Why not a nice place but a lake of fire? Beside, it's not us that doesn't want anything to do with God. If anything it's God who doesn't want anything to do with us. We are here, day in day, asking for proof and yet we get nothing.

[jamesyaqub]

Apologists often say that God doesn't send non-believers to hell, they send themselves by not wanting to be with God. But if that is the case then non-believers don't want to go to hell either and yet they supposedly end up there anyway. So, why wouldn't God create a place for people who are otherwise just as good as believers but whose only "sin" was not believing or accepting God? Why would God create only two options in which one of them "punishes" equally people who do really evil things and people who may actually be better human beings than many Christians but simply do not believe in God.
To me it's the equivalent of someone inviting people to his birthday party and whoever decides to come will have lots of fun, food and everything else but whoever refuses the invitation gets sent to a North Korean prison for life.

There is no hell.

[Goat]

Apologists often say that God doesn't send non-believers to hell, they send themselves by not wanting to be with God. But if that is the case then non-believers don't want to go to hell either and yet they supposedly end up there anyway. So, why wouldn't God create a place for people who are otherwise just as good as believers but whose only "sin" was not believing or accepting God? Why would God create only two options in which one of them "punishes" equally people who do really evil things and people who may actually be better human beings than many Christians but simply do not believe in God.
To me it's the equivalent of someone inviting people to his birthday party and whoever decides to come will have lots of fun, food and everything else but whoever refuses the invitation gets sent to a North Korean prison for life.

There is no hell.

Yes, there is. It is in Michigan.

[Nickman]

Apologists often say that God doesn't send non-believers to hell, they send themselves by not wanting to be with God. But if that is the case then non-believers don't want to go to hell either and yet they supposedly end up there anyway. So, why wouldn't God create a place for people who are otherwise just as good as believers but whose only "sin" was not believing or accepting God? Why would God create only two options in which one of them "punishes" equally people who do really evil things and people who may actually be better human beings than many Christians but simply do not believe in God.
To me it's the equivalent of someone inviting people to his birthday party and whoever decides to come will have lots of fun, food and everything else but whoever refuses the invitation gets sent to a North Korean prison for life.

There is no hell.

Yes, there is. It is in Michigan.

And its froze over. I had to!

[Swrrws]

[Replying to post 14 by Goat]

I would say Matthew 25:46 for the only reason that it doesn't specifically mention the type of punishment other than the sending away. Some also point to 2 Thessalonians but I don't think either really support this view. Honestly I think that belief came about to soften the view of Hell and maybe by extension the "problem" of eternal punishment. Other than that I have nothing.

[Swrrws]

Because there is no such thing as a "good" person apart from God....

Then let me rephrase the question in the OP.
Why wouldn't God create a nice place for people who are otherwise just as sinful as believers other than the sin of blasphemy in the sense that we do not accepting God?

Those who reject Christ commit the only unforgivable sin -- refusing to be saved and sanctified by the Lord, choosing to remain sinners, refusing to be recreated as good in their very being.

It's blasphemy against the Holy Spirit that is unforgivable.

And God did create a place for such people. The Bible refers to it as the lake of fire. And yes, people end up there by their own choice. I don't quite understand why atheists get so upset about the idea of hell. After all, they haven't wanted anything to do with God in this life. Why are they upset at the fact that he confirms that choice in the next?

Hence the question in the OP. Why not a nice place but a lake of fire? Beside, it's not us that doesn't want anything to do with God. If anything it's God who doesn't want anything to do with us. We are here, day in day, asking for proof and yet we get nothing.

This isn't quite right. It isn't that God gets so mad at us sinners that we are thrown into Hell. God is a perfect and holy being. So much so that sin cannot exist in His presence. Man is inherently sinful. Man cannot be in Gods presence in this state. God wants us to return to him. We either die an eternal death or live an eternal life with God. We die with sin because we cannot do otherwise.
The only way to remediate sin is through the shedding of blood. When Adam and Eve sinned the first thing God did was slay an animal. Not just to provide them clothes but to show them the proper method of worship and forgiveness of sin. This theme continued until the 1st century ad. Jerusalem was awash with the blood of lambs and goats and sheep. Man was as corrupt as man had ever been. This was not going to be a suitable way for humanity to continue on; wading in wickedness and sheep entrails.

The only way for mans continuos sin debt to be paid would be for someone with infinite value or infinite sin "credit" to shed his blood or "pay" the debt to remediate sin in its entirety. Only God could do this. God had always had a plan for this. His Son, from the beginning of man was going to be the ultimate sacrifice. Not only did he shed blood, but he debased himself by becoming man, was ridiculed, betrayed, and suffered the most painful death ever devised. But God cannot die, and Jesus cannot die. With the belief that Jesus shed his blood for our sins we are free of sin in Gods eyes. It is as if when God turns to judge us he sees his Son instead. Jesus gifts us the honor of being seen as Himself in the eyes of the Father. For this nothing is asked in return.

So those that Jesus will not stand for cannot be in Gods presence. Those He will can. All a person must do is say with his mouth and believe with his heart. Those who reject Him technically don't commit one unforgivable sin, they commit all of the sins and are never forgiven.

Why don't atheists just go kill some sheep? Well the catch there is that a sacrifice can only be made in the house of god, or the dwelling of God. Literally the temple. Jesus made clear that the body, his and yours, were now the temple. This was symbolized in the earthquake which struck Jerusalem and damaged the Temple(also in many other ways during His ministry and then during the apostolic period) and later realized when Rome destroyed it.

[McCulloch]

It isn't that God gets so mad at us sinners that we are thrown into Hell. God is a perfect and holy being. So much so that sin cannot exist in His presence. Man is inherently sinful.

Don't Christians claim that humans were created in the image of God? How is it that creatures created in the image of God are inherently sinful? Yes, I know the story of Adam and Eve. But only an evil God would make sinfulness an inheritable trait. No other trait acquired in one's lifetime is inheritable; that would be the error of Lamarck. Jews have been cutting off foreskins for many, many generations yet they continue to be born with them. In the same way, sinfulness acquired by Adam and Eve during their lifetimes should not have been a trait that they passed down to their offspring by inheritance. If God made a special exception for this one trait, then he deliberately promoted evil.

Man cannot be in Gods presence in this state. God wants us to return to him. We either die an eternal death or live an eternal life with God. We die with sin because we cannot do otherwise.

Why would a loving God eternally punish people for doing what they could not help themselves from doing? At least the portrayal of God by those who believe in annihilation of the unredeemed is a bit more just. Why do you believe in an unjust God?

The only way to remediate sin is through the shedding of blood. When Adam and Eve sinned the first thing God did was slay an animal. Not just to provide them clothes but to show them the proper method of worship and forgiveness of sin. This theme continued until the 1st century ad. Jerusalem was awash with the blood of lambs and goats and sheep. Man was as corrupt as man had ever been. This was not going to be a suitable way for humanity to continue on; wading in wickedness and sheep entrails.

This is just an absurd notion. What possible reason would God have for living sacrifices?

The only way for mans continuos sin debt to be paid would be for someone with infinite value or infinite sin "credit" to shed his blood or "pay" the debt to remediate sin in its entirety. Only God could do this. God had always had a plan for this. His Son, from the beginning of man was going to be the ultimate sacrifice. Not only did he shed blood, but he debased himself by becoming man, was ridiculed, betrayed, and suffered the most painful death ever devised. But God cannot die, and Jesus cannot die. With the belief that Jesus shed his blood for our sins we are free of sin in Gods eyes. It is as if when God turns to judge us he sees his Son instead. Jesus gifts us the honor of being seen as Himself in the eyes of the Father. For this nothing is asked in return.

This is equally ridiculous. According to you, this is what God has done. He created humans in His own image. He put them into a place where they could be deceived into disobedience and he made the punishment for that disobedience horribly out of scope to the misdemeanour. He the altered the natural rules of inheritability so that all succeeding generations of humans would unjustly inherit the sinful nature. He then decreed that He needed blood sacrifice because of our disobedience. God then became a human so that the other humans could cruelly torture and kill Him, thus somehow appeasing God's wrath against us.

And you expect us to believe this?

Why don't atheists just go kill some sheep?

More likely it is that we are more reasonable than to believe in a god that requires blood sacrifice.

[Swrrws]

It isn't that God gets so mad at us sinners that we are thrown into Hell. God is a perfect and holy being. So much so that sin cannot exist in His presence. Man is inherently sinful.

Don't Christians claim that humans were created in the image of God? How is it that creatures created in the image of God are inherently sinful? Yes, I know the story of Adam and Eve. But only an evil God would make sinfulness an inheritable trait. No other trait acquired in one's lifetime is inheritable; that would be the error of Lamarck. Jews have been cutting off foreskins for many, many generations yet they continue to be born with them. In the same way, sinfulness acquired by Adam and Eve during their lifetimes should not have been a trait that they passed down to their offspring by inheritance. If God made a special exception for this one trait, then he deliberately promoted evil.

These questions are absolutely valid. This is also a doctrinal response to a previous post.
First let's clear up the definitions of the English words inherit and inherent.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/inherent?s=t

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/inherit?s=t

Man was created in the image of god. In a way such as a mannequin is created in the image of man. Doctrinally man was initially created without sin but with free will. At some point man made the choice to sin. This original sin corrupted the world forever after and necessitated the separation of man from God. It can be argued if you believe the tree of knowledge story original sin was truly first perpetrated by Angels. Either way man now lives in a sinful world. In a sinful world separated from God man will consistently choose the things that are not God.

Man cannot be in Gods presence in this state. God wants us to return to him. We either die an eternal death or live an eternal life with God. We die with sin because we cannot do otherwise.

Why would a loving God eternally punish people for doing what they could not help themselves from doing? At least the portrayal of God by those who believe in annihilation of the unredeemed is a bit more just. Why do you believe in an unjust God?

I never said eternally punish. I do not know what the Bible means specifically by eternal death. I do not know if lakes of fire are merely the best analogy for what eternal death is compared to eternal life.
I can say that, doctrinally, an unjust God is an impossibility. Because our dim notion of heavenly justice doesn't make us feel good does not mean that it isn't just. By definition, again doctrinally, Gods justice is perfect and it is our notion of what justice is that is imperfect. So the question is not why is God unjust, it is why is man?

The only way to remediate sin is through the shedding of blood. When Adam and Eve sinned the first thing God did was slay an animal. Not just to provide them clothes but to show them the proper method of worship and forgiveness of sin. This theme continued until the 1st century ad. Jerusalem was awash with the blood of lambs and goats and sheep. Man was as corrupt as man had ever been. This was not going to be a suitable way for humanity to continue on; wading in wickedness and sheep entrails.

This is just an absurd notion. What possible reason would God have for living sacrifices?

The notion of the shedding of blood for the forgiveness of sins is as old as Judaism itself. Genesis 4:3-9, Hebrews 11:4, Leviticus chapters 1-9.

The only way for mans continuos sin debt to be paid would be for someone with infinite value or infinite sin "credit" to shed his blood or "pay" the debt to remediate sin in its entirety. Only God could do this. God had always had a plan for this. His Son, from the beginning of man was going to be the ultimate sacrifice. Not only did he shed blood, but he debased himself by becoming man, was ridiculed, betrayed, and suffered the most painful death ever devised. But God cannot die, and Jesus cannot die. With the belief that Jesus shed his blood for our sins we are free of sin in Gods eyes. It is as if when God turns to judge us he sees his Son instead. Jesus gifts us the honor of being seen as Himself in the eyes of the Father. For this nothing is asked in return.

This is equally ridiculous. According to you, this is what God has done. He created humans in His own image. He put them into a place where they could be deceived into disobedience and he made the punishment for that disobedience horribly out of scope to the misdemeanour. He the altered the natural rules of inheritability so that all succeeding generations of humans would unjustly inherit the sinful nature. He then decreed that He needed blood sacrifice because of our disobedience. God then became a human so that the other humans could cruelly torture and kill Him, thus somehow appeasing God's wrath against us.

And you expect us to believe this?

This is not according to me. I refer you to the entirety of the Bible.
I understand your arguements. However doctrine supposes you accept the initial premise. You do not appear to accept the initial premise of Christianity.
I do not expect anyone to believe anything.
I do not know who "us" is but to frame your unbelief in the context of a firm majority opinion is a miscalculation.

Why don't atheists just go kill some sheep?

More likely it is that we are more reasonable than to believe in a god that requires blood sacrifice.

Again, this was a doctrinal discussion. Also a poor attempt at humor. Atheists, as you self identify with, do not believe in God. On this point we agree.

My post was clearly made in response to doctrinal statements made in the quoted post. You have not made a single point which can be supported by Christian doctrine and as such have provided no biblical or other doctrinal references.
The response I wrote to the quoted post is accepted Christian doctrine.

[Bust Nak]

This isn't quite right. It isn't that God gets so mad at us sinners that we are thrown into Hell. God is a perfect and holy being. So much so that sin cannot exist in His presence. Man is inherently sinful. Man cannot be in Gods presence in this state. God wants us to return to him. We either die an eternal death or live an eternal life with God. We die with sin because we cannot do otherwise.

Eternal death as in annihilationism? Not literal lake of fire? I would accept that qualify as a good place for non-believers.

The only way to remediate sin is through the shedding of blood...
All a person must do is say with his mouth and believe with his heart. Those who reject Him technically don't commit one unforgivable sin, they commit all of the sins and are never forgiven...

If my penality was paid then it is paid whether I believe it or not, no?