Post 1: Sat May 03, 2014 3:38 pm
Did Lucifer fall in heaven or in the Garden of Eden?
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I was comparing the passages used to describe Lucifer's fall and Genesis 1-3 and I found many similarities between the two, and currently believe Lucifer's fall occurred in the Garden of Eden.
I have also looked at a few possible problems such as one addressed by Don Stewart.
"The description given here could hardly refer to the earthly Garden of Eden. In the Garden of Eden, there is no reference to gold or precious stones. "
However this is not true.
10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
Just curious on other people's thoughts.Did Lucifer fall in heaven or in the Garden of Eden?
Post 2: Sun May 04, 2014 4:11 pm
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The talking snake was clearly a talking snake, which is why God cursed snakes to slide around on their bellies. I can only presume that before hand they had legs. At least in this story.
I believe the first few chapters of Genesis are simply "just so" stories... an entertaining attempt at trying to explain why things are the way they are.
IF however we are to presume Lucifer and the talking snake are one in the same, then the bible seems to suggest that Lucifer's fall took place in Heaven. He was cast out of heaven along with millions of demons, it seems. So God in that case was a very neglective parent allowing Lucifer to have free reign, go where ever he wants and even enter Adam and Eve's playground. Kind of like a parent knowingly leaving a paedophile in the playground with their kids.Seeing as Lucifer and the talking snake are two different entities, I'm not sure how this question can be answered accurately.
Post 3: Sun May 04, 2014 8:45 pm
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|Replying to OnceConvinced]
Actually this is where my study started. In Genesis 3, a snake is described but it has a dual meaning. The snake is not a snake, but a Hebrew figure of speech. The actual word in Hebrew is "nachash" and can translate to "shining one" as well. This is also true for the Greek equivalent in the New Testament.
With this understood meaning "shining one" and how he is "more crafty and cunning", already gives a strong connection to Ezekiel 28.
Post 4: Sun May 04, 2014 10:47 pm
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|So if the snake was not an ACTUAL snake, why did God curse ACTUAL snakes?|
Post 5: Mon May 05, 2014 2:07 pm
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The fact that they slide on the ground is not proof they were involved in the curse at all...Snakes do not eat dust! Crawling on the ground and eating dust can refer to being debased and downtrodden, spiritually.
I believe dust may refer to Adam's body made of dust and the curse consigns all reprobate to becoming human (dust) too as part of the curse on their sinful choices.
Post 6: Tue May 06, 2014 10:52 pm
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Gen 3: 14
So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, CURSED are you above all livestock and all wild animals!You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life.
God is quite clearly cursing snakes here. Cursed above all livestock AND ALL wild animals. This isn't talking about a fallen angel here! Lucifer is not a wild animal.
To try to turn this into a metaphor is being very inconsistent with the rest of the story, which was very literal. You are taking it out of context and applying your own meaning to the words. It doesn't make sense to throw in a metaphor right here like you are trying to do. I'll bet you this is a simple "Just so" story about why snakes have no legs, much like the chapters around it are:
How did the Earth get here?
How did out two ancestors at the top of the family tree get here?
How did evil come into the world?
Why do humans wear clothes?
Why must women be subservient to man?
Why does woman suffer pain at child birth?
Why is life so tough?
Why do our bodies turn to dust when we die?
A collection of "just so" stories, which were never meant to be taken as literal history. Perhaps the author who wrote this story really did believe that snakes ate dirt? They probably figured, how does a snake slide around the desert without getting a mouthful of dust? We're talking about the same guy here who believed that bats were birds and that rabbits chewed their cud! He believed that light came first before the sun was even created. He believed that the moon was a separate source of light to the sun. He wasn't well educated. LOL
This goes into more of my thoughts on the entire story:
The Fall of Man
Post 7: Fri May 09, 2014 8:01 pm
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|Replying to OnceConvinced]
Lucifer is called a snake for two reasons. The firgure of speech is the literal form that Lucifer is in, his cherub state. The literal definition of the Hebrew word is used for
1) to highlight Lucifer's nature as many other references support
2) to signify Adam's lose of dominance over the dominion he was given by God
Actually many things in the "just so" stories point otherwise. For example the "after their kind" is more accurately translated as "through their kind" and coupled with the understanding that they came from the earth. Sounds like macroevolution.
This has been disputed, do your research.
Post 9: Mon Aug 04, 2014 6:30 pm
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What happened was Israel aka Jacob, the children of Israel fell out from grace with God because of sin and them breaking the commandments God gave them. So they got cursed as he promised they would in Deuteronony 28:15-68 those are all the curses that fell upon the whole race of the israelites. Including going into slavery on slave ships (deuteronomy 28:68) Egypt meaning slavery, not the physical land mass of Egypt.
So they lost their power as top nation in the earth, essentialy Israel "fell from heaven". Heaven is a metaphorical word for being at the top having the power and authority as a race or nation. They had it in the days of King David and Solomon they ruled the world roughly 73 years before they split up into 2 nations and 2 kingdoms and starting going into various captivities to various real gentile/heathen races. These were some of the curses on Israel, including losing full power over jerusalem, as the Ronan caucasian race took it over and had established their government there and the jews who were apart of the southern kingdom of israel (3 tribes, judah (Jews) benjamin and levi)
they had to answer to the Romans in their own land. They did not have authority to rule jerusalem by themselves or kick the Romans out. God stripped them of that power and he would eventually even kick them out of the land for good until the times of the gentile nations ruling be fulfilled. Were in the times of the gentiles today.
Now as for lucifer? It means light bearer. Lucifer is only mentioned in the Bible ONE time and it is NOT in reference to Satan or the Devil. Lucifer is a title for a specific race of people, a soon to cursed seed in the Earth, the children of Esau/Edom. When you read Isaiah 14 in its context you can see how lucifer is being described as a man, a nation of people.
Because of Israels fall and punishment from their top position as a people. by default Esau was allowed to rise up and get dominion in the Earth. That was apart of his blessing from Isaac. He never received the ultimate chosen one covenant blessing from God, but he did however receive a blessing from Isaac and he would one day have dominion but he would have to live by the sword to get it. in other words his race or his people, his seed, would have to kill nations and steal their lands in order for his people to inherit some type of power and prosperity and good dwelling places in the earth for his people.
Genesis 27:37-41 KJV
"And Isaac answered and said unto Esau, Behold, I have made him (Jacob) your lord (Master), and all his brethren have I given to him for servants; and with corn and wine have I sustained him: and what shall I do now unto you, my son?"
"And Esau said unto his father, Have you but one blessing, my father? bless me, even me also, O my father. And Esau lifted up his voice, and wept."
"And Isaac his father answered and said unto him, Behold, your dwelling shall be the fatness of the earth (the best lands), and of the dew of heaven from above; And by your SWORD shall you live, and shall serve your brother (Jacob); and (but) it shall come to pass when you shall have the dominion (over the earth), that you shall break his yoke from off your neck."
"And Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing wherewith his father blessed him: and Esau said in his heart, The days of mourning for my father are at hand; then will I slay my brother Jacob."
So at one point Esau was a slave to Jacob in the israelites kingdom with King David and Solomon. But he said he would break the yoke off his neck and have dominion in the earth but by his sword shall he get it.
Lucifer is Esau. Isaiah 14 is a prophetic last days chapter. The prophecy of the nation of Edom/Esau falling from their throne of power and the nation of Israel rising back up to it because of their relationship with God and him choosing them.
Genesis 25:26 gives us a clue at the birth of Esau of who Esau is today.
Genesis 25:25-26 KJV
"And the first came out red, all over like an hairy garment; and they called his name Esau. And after that came his brother out, and his "hand took hold on Esau's heel"; and his name was called Jacob: and Isaac was threescore years old when she bare them."
Jacobs hand taking hold on Esaus heel was symbolic. And heres the revelation of the meaning of it found in the Apocrypha KJV 2 Esdras 6.
Then answered I and said, What shall be the parting asunder of the times? or when shall be the end of the first, and the beginning of it that followeth?
2 Esdras 6:8-9
8 "And he said unto me, From Abraham unto Isaac, when Jacob and Esau were born of him, Jacob's hand held first the heel of Esau. (Why?)
9 For Esau is the "end of the world", and Jacob is the beginning of it that follows."
So Esau would have world dominion in the last days, he would be the end of the world as we know it, and then Jacob which is Gods chosen race, the children of Israel. They would be the beginning of the next world that follows which is the kingdom of God on Earth, when Christ returns and establishes it, he will set the israelites back up in power over the world and the nations. Their rightful seat with God. Aka Heaven. a 1000 year kingdom before the final judgement day and the whole lake of fire scene.
So if Jacob is going to be the beginning that follows, and Esau is at the end? That must mean that Esau has to FALL from his throne right? Now we understand what isaiah 14 was talking about. Esau falling from his power and dominion in the earth. Because his kinhdom is not inspired by God, and if your kingdom aint inspired by God, then it will eventually fall. Only the nation of Israel Gods chosen has an everlasting kingdom of power and dominion aka "everlasting life" because its inspired by God.
Esau was allowed to rise to power and have dominion simply so God can show his power in the earth and to all nations that he is God, the one true God and no matter how powerful your race may get, it will be humbled and bow before God and his people when its all said and done. this is what Paul was saying in Romans 9 when he says Esau was created to be a wrath fitted for destruction, he was created to be an evil enemy in the earth. And Jacob the israelites were created to be the vessels of mercy. Yes there is a cursed race in the earth a race God hates and its the children of Esau. Sorru, but like Romans 9 says "Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid, for he told moses he would have compassion and mercy on whom he will".
Heres some other scriptures in reference to Esau falling from "Heaven"
Malachi 1:1-5 KJV
"The burden of the word of the Lord to Israel by Malachi. I have loved you, says the Lord . Yet you say, Wherein have you loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? says the Lord : yet I loved Jacob, And I "hated" Esau, and laid his mountains (governments) and his heritage (race) waste for the dragons (nations) of the wilderness."
"Whereas Edom said, We are impoverished (poverty, poor, oppressed), but we will return and build the desolate places; this says the Lord of hosts, They shall build, but I will "throw down"; and they shall call them, (the children/Race of Esau/Edom) The border of wickedness, and, The people (race) against whom the Lord has indignation (fierce anger) for ever. And your eyes shall see, and you shall say, The Lord will be magnified from the border of Israel."
So it seems God has some major bad blood with the children of Esau, from the greatest (the kings of them) to the least (the common middle class and poor of them) every last one of the seed, God hates.
There is no mercy for them in the day of judgement, their fate is already sealed and spoken akready according to The bible, he will be brought low to a slave to the israelites in the kingdom and cut off forever as in will never have any kind of power or authoritu as a people again. Theyll be living in the kingdom but as slaves. This particular seed.
heres more prophecy of Esaus fall from his unrightful throne of power. and notice and pay attention to the mentions of being "cast down" the corrolations fit with Isaiah 14 when it mentions lucifer falling from heaven.
Obadiah 1:1-4 KJV
"The vision of Obadiah. This saith the Lord God concerning Edom (the children of Esau); We have heard a rumour from the Lord , and an ambassador is sent among the heathen (real gentiles), Arise you, and let us rise up against her (Esau) in battle."
"Behold, I have made you (Esau) small (hated) among the heathen (gentiles): you are greatly despised. The pride of your heart has deceived you, you that dwell in the clefts of the rock, whose habitation is high; that says in his heart, Who shall bring me down to the ground?"
"Though you exalt yourself as the "eagle", and though you set your nest among the stars (heaven), thence will I "bring you down", says the Lord ."
now theres 2 interpretations you can get out of that last verse.
1: the stars he set his nest upon is reference to being in outter space, because today he has nasa space system and literally dwells in outter space and when they landed on the moon they stated "the EAGLE has landed. And america exalts herself as the Eagle. and has dominion over the world and is very prideful and believes noone can bring her down.
or 2: The stars he set his nest upon is refering to the children of Israel because theyre often times referred to as stars.
but I believe its the former because It makes more sense, they do have a nest in outter space, but hoewever he has done both anyway dwells in outter space and has power over the children of Israel. So take your pick lol because the real children of israel are oppressed and a poverty stricken and cursed people this day largly in part because of the children of Esau.
So the Bible gives as plenty of clues who the children of esau is today. At his birth he was described as red skinned and hairy. He was a cunning hunter which is a characteristic of his people. He has a very prideful heart, has world dominion today and got it by the sword. He dwells in outter space and exalts hinself as an eagle and has the most powerful kingdoms in the earth including THE most powerful of all time.
That sounds like one race to me and thats the european caucasian race. They are red in complexion. And dont get me wrong, im not being so called racist at all, im simply stating the facts and the obvious here. Theyre red complexioned people. because of lack of pigmentation. He pretty much was born an albino. The blood shows through their skin, right? I mean, its a reason they call them "rednecks" down south because its no secret theyre really red. Theyre not white, nobody is "white" the actual color. white was an self exaltation they used in the slavery days because it represents puritu and cleanliness. So they called themselves, self entiltled "white".
but the reality is that they are red not white, different shades of red even pink which is a derivitive of red. Theyre very hairy too. And when you do the research they were the cavemen and women during the dark ages dwelling in the caucasus mountains of georgia russia. This was the era when they were impoverished according to the book of malachi 1 prophecy. At one point they did rule, they were ruling during the time of christ as the Romans and grecians. But Rome fell about 193 ad. When they lost the battle to septimius severus and were exiled from their land and became poor, they fled to the caycasus and there dwelled for centuries while the black moors ruled most of europe.
but they came back in power and built again like God said they would, during the renaissance era when they conquered Rome again in 1453 winning the battle at constantinople. Then they traveled the world establishing power and columbus the spaniard came out west and conquered the indians and took over their land and brought over slaves to build up their kingdom of america. by the way those indians they slaughtered and those negroes they enslaved and those nations they conquered in central and south america were all the children of israel. So the european caucasian race has a lot of blood on their hands. And for all the wickedness theyve done, their children the descendants have to pick up the tab and pay the bill. The old saying goes, pay for the sins of your fathers. So even if youre innocent of all that evil, youre still going to have to be a servant in the israelites kingdom. for as it is written.
Isaiah 14:1-2 KJV
"For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land (Israel): and the strangers (real gentiles) shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house (race) of Jacob. And the people (israelites) shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house (race) of Israel shall possess (own) them in the land of the Lord for servants (males) and handmaids (female concubines): and they shall take them captives (slaves), whose captives (slaves) they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors."
thats only fair and just. Since they refuse to give them reparations for their slavery. God will give you into their hands and YOU are going to be their "mule" working on their 40 achres. YOU are going to their lawnmower servants, like they do your grass today. YOU (women) are going to be their secindary wives and sex servants like their woman were once your mens sex servants aka concubines or handmaids.
Thats the judgment. Thats the fall from heaven. America is your heaven today.
heres a graphic prophecy of the destruction of the vsst majority of the children of edom. because it will only be a remnant that even make it in as slaves, the vast majority will be executed when christ returns according to prophecy. I cant change the prophecy. It says whay it says.
Isaiah 63:1-9 KJV (destruction of Esau and redemption of Jacob)
Isaiah: "Who is this that comes from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength?
Christ: I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
Isaiah:"Wherefore are you red in your apparel, and your garments like him that treads in the winefat?
Christ: "I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people (Israelites) there was none with me: for I will tread them (Children of Esau) in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment! For the day of "vengeance" is in my heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
Christ: "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore my own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. And I will tread down the people (children of Esau) in my anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will "bring down their strength (governments) to the earth".
Christ: "I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the Lord , and the praises of the Lord , according to all that the Lord has bestowed on us (children of Israel), and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he has bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses. For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Savior.
Christ: "In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old."
So there you have it folks. The children of Esau/Edom are toasted and Christ is highly angry at them, the slavery, the rapping, the murderings, the lynchings, The robbing of their lands, stealing Jerusalem, lying, hating and oppressing Gods people. All that was done unto Christ, the son of God and he cant wait for God to let him loose in the day of vengeance, like a caged lion ready to devour. Its going to be a very chaotic and horrific time when he comes. Hes got built up anger in his heart against Esau. Like it said he has indignation forever. So you can take john 3:16 and all the jesus loves scripture and throw them out the window because they have nothing to do with children of Esau. Ive posted many scriptures on how he feels about Esau, what makes you think hes going to allow them to have ANY can of authority or power or free will in his kingdom? remember, the elder shall serve the younger?
thats their rightful place is a servant and a yes man and yes woman to the men and women of the seed of jacob who are in christ.
the children of Esau are walking slaves on preserve.
Amos 9:11-12 KJV
"In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen (the children of Israel) and close up the breaches (divisions) thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old (top power): That they may possess (OWN) the "remnant" of Edom (Children of Esau), and of all the heathen (gentiles), which are called by my name, says the Lord that does this."
now dont be fooled. This verse was mis translated in the english bibles, seemingly on purpose to hide the truth. Because in the spanish and Haitian creole bibles the translation is much different. Theres only one people who are called by Gods name and its the children of Israel. in the spanish and creole the translation reads.
"So that those upon whom my name is called, may possess the remnant of Edom and the heathen, thus saith the lord that doeth this"
thats the spanish and haitian translations. So somebody tampered with the english, probably Esau trying to deceive and empower the nations. He couldnt do it without the bible and cthe catholic religion and cesare borgia. (the roman caucasian false image of christ) done during the renaissance era.
So no, there is no heathen called by Gods name. The remnant of Esau are going into slavery bound in chains becausr they arent going willfully. And israel is not going to be chasing them all over earth. And the remnant that do go are going by chance.
for as it is written.
Obadiah 1:8-10 KJV
"Shall I not in that day, says the Lord , even destroy the wise men out of Edom, and understanding out of the mount (government) of Esau? And your mighty men, O Teman, shall be dismayed, to the end that every one of the mount (government) of Esau may be cut off by "slaughter". For your violence against your brother Jacob shame shall cover you, and you shalt be cut off for ever."
Obadiah 1:15-18 KJV
"For the day of the Lord is near upon all the heathen (gentiles): as you have done, it shall be done unto you: your reward shall return upon your own head. For as you have drunk upon my holy mountain (jerusalem), so shall all the heathen (gentiles) drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been."
"But upon mount Zion (Israel) shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions. And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house (children) of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the Lord has spoken it."
how much more do you want? I mean theres nothing the children of esau can do. Just accept the cup and drink whats in it.
yeah you werent there but oh well. hey those that actually did it are going to be slaughtered to death, those that didnt are going to be servants and handmaids. I rather be a servant in someones mansion then slaughtered and tortured to death then get cast into the lake of fire. At least as a servant you can still live and have families. Be happy with that. For as it is written.
Isaiah 14:21 KJV
"Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities."
thats crystal clear. The whole race has to be brought low so they dont rise and build kingdoms around the world and gain power again.
so now lets read about lucifer in closing and see if its talking about Esau or Satan being kicked out of heaven for warring with God lol which is mythological fables.
Satan can go to heaven where God is anytime he wants just read Job 1, Satan is a hired gun for God, his sole purpose is to tempt people and test peoples (mainly the israelites) loyalty to God. Satan does have dominion over this world today and Esau is his chosen race. Just like Israel is Gods chosen race. Esau the red dragon bowed to satan and serves him to get and sustain his power. read revelation 13. The dragon (satan) gave the beast (Esau) his power.
lucifer again means light bearer. Meaning this race holds the light and every nation follows them and their ways and customs for the most part. But his light is wickedness and leads to death and hell (poverty and oppression)
Isaiah 14:3-21 KJV
"And it shall come to pass in the day that the Lord shall give you (children of Israel) rest from your sorrow, and from your fear, and from the hard bondage (slavery) wherein you was made to serve, That you (israelites) shall take up this proverb against the king of Babylon/america (Esau), and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! The Lord has broken the staff (government) of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers."
"He who smote the people (Israelites) in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations (gentiles) in anger, is persecuted, and none hinders."
(nobody will stop it when he falls, remembet God made him small and greatly despised among the gentiles, so they can careless when he falls into poverty and slavery)
"The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing. Yea, (even) the fir trees rejoice at you, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since you are laid down, no feller (axe) is come up against us."
(even the damn trees cant wait for this nation to fall, thats a shame!)
"Hell (poverty, slavery, oppression) from beneath is moved for you to meet you at your coming: it stirs up the dead (nations) for you, even all the chief ones of the earth; it has raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations."
"All they shall speak and say unto you, Are you also become weak as we? are you become like unto us? your pomp (pride and arrogance) is brought down to the grave, and the noise of your viols (music): the worm is spread under you, and the worms cover you (corrosion, economic fall)."
"How are you fallen from "heaven" (power), O Lucifer, son of the morning! how are you cut down to the ground (poverty and oppression), which dids weaken the nations (gentiles)!"
"For you have said in your heart, I will ascend into heaven (power/dominion) I will exalt my throne above the stars of God (outter space or Israel, take your pick, hes done both):
"I will sit also upon the mount (government) of the congregation (israelites), in the sides of the north (america): (Conquered indians)"
"I will ascend above the heights of the clouds (air planes, jets, rockets, space travel); I will be like the most High (God)."
"Yet you shall be brought down to hell (poverty, death, oppression, slavery), to the sides of the pit. They that see you shall narrowly look upon you, and consider you saying, Is this the man (nation/race) that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;"
"That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities (kingdoms) thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?"
"All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house (land). But you are cast out of your grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet." (jacked up pretty bad in other words, remember isaiah 63? christ vengeance on Edom?)
"you shall not be joined with them in burial (because all nations are going into sonme form of poverty and captivity to the israelites, but not as worse as Edoms), because you have destroyed your land (america), and slain your people (whites treat whites like crap in america, but dont even realise God hates you all): the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned."
"Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity (slavery of the negroes, stealing jerusalem and israel, slaughtering the indians, blaspheming Gods name) of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities (kingdoms)."
so thats that.....Lucifer is Esau/Edom. The entire caucasian race. so if thats you and youre a descendant of this seed? you better start kissing butt so the lord will have some mercy on you in the day of judgment. Its best to be a slave then to be tortured to death by Christ himself. The slaves will be the ones that are humble to the truth.
lucifer is the so called caucasian nation.lucifer is the nation of Edom aka Esau, Jacobs (Israels) elder fraternal twin brother. it came down to those 2 seeds who would be the chosen people God woupd chose to rule his creation and all nations in it. The blessing obviously went to Jacob as it was ordained by God in genesis 25:23 The Elder shall serve the younger. Esau is the elder.