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KCKID
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:36 pm  Will gays EVER be accepted by mainstream Christianity? Reply with quote

The Mainstream Christian Church (i.e. the 'Christian Church' in general) appears to have an unshakable belief that gay people cannot possibly be Christians. Therefore gay people will always be regarded as 'lepers' because the mainstream Church believes that homosexuality is against the will of God and the actual practicing of such is a 'grave sin'. This is in spite of the fact that nowhere in the Bible is homosexuality referred to as a grave sin. This more comes from the minds of people who have received a life time of brainwashing into believing this. Where homosexual activity IS mentioned in scripture it almost always - in fact, PROBABLY always - refers to the practice of idolatry and not as WE today refer to homosexuality. There are those Christians who are so appalled at the notion that gay people might desire to integrate with 'actual Christians' within their Church community that they suggest gays start their own denomination ...minus the 'Christian' prefix, of course, which would be sacrilege. Such folks want nothing to do with homosexual people and their minds appear to be set on this.

Below is a recent item from The Guardian that tells of the plight of gay Christians in Uganda. In our particular neck of the woods (probably the majority of those of us who participate on the forum) gays have no fear of state imposed death or life imprisonment as do those in places such as Uganda. Gays do, however, have a stigma placed on them by most Christians that results in rejection by the mainstream Church and, indeed, by God himself. And, of course, the rejection of God is tantamount to death or, worse still, eternal torment. The latter makes the penalty imposed on gays in Uganda pale by comparison.

Will mainstream Christianity ever be accepting of people whose only 'sin' is that they happen to be gay ...i.e. an involuntary sexual attraction between two people of the same gender? If not, why not? Please, give your HONEST reasons.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/09/uganda-gays-church-sanctuary-kampal...

Sunday is a special day in Uganda, the conservative east African country that is threatening to put gay people behind bars for life. On Sunday you can see families flocking to churches all over the country for prayer, wearing their best clothes.

The sermons are predictable. Church leaders will pray for divine intervention against the corrupt leaders, poverty and the potholed roads, and then finally call doom upon the country's homosexuals who are sinning against the Christian God and ruining African culture.

But not at a tiny church tucked away in one of Kampala's suburbs. Here, gay people meet in devoted challenge to mainstream denominations that have declared them outcasts. With dread-locked hair and in jeans and bathroom slippers, members of this congregation would stand out in the prim and proper evangelical church I sometimes go to. I feel overdressed in my white dress.

"Here we are all about freedom," Pepe Onziema, a gay rights activist tells me. "It is a universal church. We welcome people whether gay or straight."

The gates may be open but the road to the church that calls itself a friendship and reconciliation centre is not paved with sleek cars or thronged with believers. The worshippers trickle in. They take their seats, but not before surveying the crowd furtively, trying to identify everyone. Their life depends on this vigilance.

In Uganda, police raid homes and arrest those they suspect to be gay. Homosexuality is an offence under the penal code. The president, Yoweri Museveni, refuses to pass a bill that seeks to strengthen the punishments for homosexuality to include life imprisonment, but isn’t under pressure to do so. Conservative Christian churches, under the auspices of the Uganda Joint Christian Council, refuse to accept homosexuals in spite of more gay-friendly approaches from parent churches abroad. The anti-gay furnace is fanned by American evangelical churches that have made it their mission to free Africa of homosexuality, saying it is alien to African culture.

The gay Ugandan church seeks to spread an alternative gospel of love and acceptance for all. On this particular Sunday, it is the memorial of David Kato, a gay rights activist who was murdered in 2011. So the numbers are bigger than usual. When the church was started by Bishop Christopher Senyonjo (who has since been thrown out of the Anglican Church for ministering to gay people), the gay community in Uganda attended devotedly. But with arrests and growing anti-gay sentiments, threats to their lives and arrests, fewer and fewer people come to the church.

"Our numbers have reduced ever since we started in 2008," Denis, the chaplain and a primary school teacher, tells me. "It is worse now that the bill has been passed." If Denis's employees knew of his orientation or his calling, he would certainly lose his job. "This is the only place we can feel at home. Here we can worship God without feeling guilty or fearing persecution."

Joining a gay congregation in Uganda is risky but Onziema says it is necessary in a society that greatly values community. For on Sundays, when many Ugandans spend time with their families, most gay people have nowhere to go. "Coming here lets us know that we are not alone and gives us the strength to continue the struggle," Onziema says.

You can see both hope and fear in the eyes of the congregation as they read Bible verses proclaiming God's protection over them and sing "What a friend we have in Jesus".

Here, there are no thunderous shouts of praise, speaking in tongues or Bible-thumping that is characteristic of the evangelism that is so trendy in the country. In the quiet worship of Uganda's gay community, there is a still hope and the kind of courage you can only muster after you have seen it all and there is nothing left to fear. Sunday is also the day gay people in Uganda cast off their masks to chat about the latest fashion, cars and celebrities.

"You thought we were going to pray that God stops the anti-homosexuality bill," Mugisha, the head of Sexual Minorities Uganda, asks me with laughter and mischief in his voice. "It will not pass. We do not need to pray for that."

Mugisha is for a moment free from his job, his life, fighting for the basic human rights of gay people. "I come here for the community. It is better than staying home alone," he says. As the service ends, members of the congregation are asked to say something in memory of David Kato, whose spirit of resilience they will need as they walk out of the church into their daily routine.

"We know he did not die in vain," Mugisha says. "One day we shall be accepted."

Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 381: Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:15 am
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99percentatheism wrote:

[Replying to post 366 by KCKID]



KCKID wrote:
To continue. You refer to yourself as a Christian and yet you go out of your way - as do many Christians - to dig up texts from an ancient book for no other reason than to demean and to dehumanize the Matthew Vines of this world.


99percentatheism wrote:
That is a misplaced charge and a false one as well. I couldn't care less about Matthew Vines until he enters my world and demands I celebrate, condone and affirm his sexual tastes.


Quote:
I spoke of ‘the Matthew Vines of this world’ …not specifically Matthew Vines.


They are all the same.

99percentatheism wrote:
He has made his choice and his fate is not up to me at all. I am just to stay clear of people like him that's all.


Quote:
Spoken like a true representative of Jesus Christ. Not!


Excuse me? I am following the advice of Jesus accurately.

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Gay people have NOT made any more choice regarding their sexuality. . .


There is no scientific proof of that assertion.


You may be closer to following Paul, than Jesus. Jesus did not condemn homosexuality. He condemned those who follow the letter of the law instead of the spirit. He frequently spoke out against the approach of the Pharisees and others who were displayed arrogance about how religious they were.

Luke 18:
'9He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: 10“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”'

The scientific evidence that gender attraction is not a choice has been demonstrated repeatedly on this forum. I don't recall anyone anywhere claiming he "chose" to be heterosexual. I have heard many who claimed they tried to be heterosexual, but just couldn't do it. Considering all the pressures and shame that homosexuals have had to endure from the ignorant and self righteous and at least in the past, from society in general, why would anyone choose homosexuality.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 382: Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:50 am
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99percentatheism wrote:

Danmark wrote:

99percentatheism wrote:


Since you brought up the Holy Spirit so prominently in this post (364). I must decline to engage in debate of it (364). There are limits to what should be and shouldn't be argued and bantered about that I should observe. I'll go for the other post you entered.

So you're on a Christianity and Religion debating site, but your Christian principles forbid you to discuss the Holy Spirit? You refuse to debate the nature of God? Why are you here, besides to talk about homosexuality being a sin?

Are you claiming the Christians who discuss the "Holy Spirit" here are wrong to do so?


Pearls.

It's just ultimate respect that's all. Jesus made it clear that trashing Him and His followers have little consequences eternally, but it is my solid opinion that matters of The Holy Spirit are not something to be bantered about with non and anti Christians.

I am not at this time concerned with arguments about the solid truth of the Trinity. Anti-Trinitarians are not trying to sue Christians or cursing and denigrating the Church as a political tool or making laws forcing us to show obeisance to a sexual behavior.


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"Pearls" Shorthand for "pearls before swine". This usage of a phrase from Scripture is a violation on several levels. It is a using Scripture as a spiritual and rhetorical weapon in order to attack another poster, and also could be considered a violation against preaching guidelines.


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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 383: Sat Jul 19, 2014 6:51 am
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Re: Why not stop with gay churches?

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[Replying to post 379 by 99percentatheism]

Quote:
Who?
There are several churches that accept gay people - some even of current denomination! Shocked

Quote:
Did you just write "Gay" people?
Nope, I wrote gay people, not like you when you say "Gay" people. What's the difference? Gay people is a accepted term whereas you "Gay" people has a negative inflection which is a direct insult.

Quote:
You may want to look up the theology around the Great Apostasy.
More myths and fairy tales?

Quote:
Jude shows us how to handle that. Evolving in practice.
Evolving. Christianity is in a state of evolving. Gay people (note not "gay" people Rolling Eyes )are being accepted in christianity while it deeply bothers some people. I suppose those people are being naturally selected out. Dare shame, really. Laughing

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 384: Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:10 pm
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Re: Why not stop with gay churches?

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connermt
[Replying to post 379 by 99percentatheism]

Quote:
Who?


Quote:
There are several churches that accept gay people - some even of current denomination!


Then end of issue. Allow the Christians that hold to the reality in the Bible to not have to endure the hate of being labeled as homophobes and bigots. LGBT's got their Denoms . . . and Bible-affirming Christians have theirs. I've always advocated for that. Nothing better than having a choice when salvation is at stake.

Quote:
Did you just write "Gay" people?


Quote:
Nope, I wrote gay people, not like you when you say "Gay" people.


Yeah right.

Quote:
What's the difference? Gay people is a accepted term whereas you "Gay" people has a negative inflection which is a direct insult.


Doesn't work that way. "Gay people" or "gay people" is a labeling process that Christians did not invent. That neologism is exclusively by the homosexual community. As is Lesbian.

Quote:
You may want to look up the theology around the Great Apostasy.


Quote:
More myths and fairy tales?


Interesting that you don't think that below:

Quote:
Jude shows us how to handle that. Evolving in practice.


Quote:
Evolving. Christianity is in a state of evolving.


Couldn't agree with that more.

Quote:
Gay people (note not "gay" people)


That you have to qualify that is not a good place to be in a debate.

Quote:
. . . are being accepted in christianity while it deeply bothers some people.


The usage of the lower case c may be prophetic. I am certainly OK with a wait and see attitude. We certainly do not see a flood of "revival" in these gay churches. What we do see though is the same gay pride as we see in the secular world and its ways. Gay Pride flag and all.

Quote:
I suppose those people are being naturally selected out. Dare shame, really.


Notice they are not leaving the faith though? Those leaving the homosexualized Denominations are keeping to the faith delivered only once to the saints and worshiping elsewhere. We never see a universalism or relativism in the Churches "evolving" from the Denominations taken over by gay pride proponents as well.

Now I like this direction we are heading in connermt . . . in our ever evolving debate and discussion on the gay agenda. Obviously the answer to the OP is NO. Not even in the new evolving theology being invented by the new gay theologians. It looks like evolving means leaving false teachers and false teachers and recognizing where healthy growth will be attained. Just like biological evolving. And that is in keeping with a healthy evolving right? What looks to be happening to Denominations is no different than what Chinese Christians are enduring and what the early Church centuries ago witnessed and endured as well. Maybe soon we will evolve a new set of modern catacombs? And looking at how the internet can facilitate a safe Christian life from persecution . . . maybe the new catacombs where Christians can be safe from an ever evolving secular rejection of the right to Christian orthodoxy, will be in technology rather than dark caves.

This discussion has headed in a rather fascinating direction. But then again, evolving is an intricate matter.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 385: Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:04 pm
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Re: Why not stop with gay churches?

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99percentatheism wrote:
What looks to be happening to Denominations is no different than what Chinese Christians are enduring and what the early Church centuries ago witnessed and endured as well. Maybe soon we will evolve a new set of modern catacombs? And looking at how the internet can facilitate a safe Christian life from persecution . . . maybe the new catacombs where Christians can be safe from an ever evolving secular rejection of the right to Christian orthodoxy, will be in technology rather than dark caves.

This discussion has headed in a rather fascinating direction. But then again, evolving is an intricate matter.


(emphases mine)

Can you please support your claims of persecution with evidence or retract them? This is a debate site, not a soapbox for preaching your personal opinions. Substantiate or retract your claims.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 386: Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:27 pm
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Re: Why not stop with gay churches?

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Haven wrote:

99percentatheism wrote:
What looks to be happening to Denominations is no different than what Chinese Christians are enduring and what the early Church centuries ago witnessed and endured as well. Maybe soon we will evolve a new set of modern catacombs? And looking at how the internet can facilitate a safe Christian life from persecution . . . maybe the new catacombs where Christians can be safe from an ever evolving secular rejection of the right to Christian orthodoxy, will be in technology rather than dark caves.

This discussion has headed in a rather fascinating direction. But then again, evolving is an intricate matter.


(emphases mine)

Can you please support your claims of persecution with evidence or retract them? This is a debate site, not a soapbox for preaching your personal opinions. Substantiate or retract your claims.


Really?

The term "anti-gay" describing the holding to the faith delivered only one to the saints, carries with it persecution. Christians can be fired for being "anti-gay." Christian Craig James comes quickly to mind:

Quote:
During a debate in February 2012, James said that gay people would "answer to the Lord for their actions" and claimed that being gay was "a choice," according to USA Today. He also chastised opponent Tom Leppert for attending a gay pride parade.

- http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/07/craig-james-fired-fox-anti-gay_n_388683...


I believe YOU supplied evidence in your latest thread as well by using that term "anti-gay" didn't you?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 387: Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:32 pm
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Re: Why not stop with gay churches?

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99percentatheism wrote:

Really?

The term "anti-gay" describing the holding to the faith delivered only one to the saints, carries with it persecution.


Calling a person who holds anti-gay views "anti-gay" isn't persecution, it's truth. It's no different than calling an avowed racist skinhead "racist." Speaking the truth isn't persecution.

99 wrote:
Christians can be fired for being "anti-gay." Christian Craig James comes quickly to mind:

Huffington Post wrote:
During a debate in February 2012, James said that gay people would "answer to the Lord for their actions" and claimed that being gay was "a choice," according to USA Today. He also chastised opponent Tom Leppert for attending a gay pride parade.

- http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/07/craig-james-fired-fox-anti-gay_n_388683...


Good! He should have been fired. The kinds of statements he was making were not only false (being gay is not a choice and "the Lord" can't be demonstrated to exist, let alone be homophobic), but unbelievably offensive and abusive to gay people. While free speech gives one the right to say what he wants, it doesn't give him carte blanche to verbally bludgeon others without consequences.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 388: Sun Jul 20, 2014 1:03 am
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Re: Why not stop with gay churches?

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99percentatheism wrote:


Then end of issue. Allow the Christians that hold to the reality in the Bible to not have to endure the hate of being labeled as homophobes and bigots. LGBT's got their Denoms . . . and Bible-affirming Christians have theirs. I've always advocated for that. Nothing better than having a choice when salvation is at stake.

This is a perfect example of the self righteous certitude that is getting repudiated more and more by Christians who do fully accept scripture as the word of God, but believe in a dialogue and a community of Christians who discuss issues without pridefully insisting on their way as the only way. When someone claims to speak with authority that their own personal interpretation of the Bible is THE one and only interpretation, they are saying in effect, "I speak for God." This attitude is prideful and runs contra to the many admonitions in the Bible against arrogance. "Christians that hold to the reality in the Bible [sic]" is the equivalent of "I have decided what the Bible says; therefore I speak for God and anyone who disagrees with me is not a Christian."

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 389: Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:52 am
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Re: Why not stop with gay churches?

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[Replying to post 384 by 99percentatheism]

Quote:
"Gay people" or "gay people" is a labeling process that Christians did not invent
A claim I never made as I'm sure you know. What I DID claim is how you use it, which was in a negative manner - veiled insult as it were.
Quote:
Allow the Christians that hold to the reality in the Bible to not have to endure the hate of being labeled as homophobes and bigots.
You refuse to accept that many do AND that you won't please everyone. You're taking the extremes and masquerading them as the standard, which is, above all else, dishonest.
Quote:
Couldn't agree with that more [that christianity is evolving].
You don't have to agree with it to be true, but it's nice to see you accept reality.
Quote:
Notice they are not leaving the faith though?
That affects you how, exactly?

The evolution of christianity is ongoing and, eventually, gay people will be accepted by mainstream christianity per the post question (even though they already have by many different christian sects)

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 390: Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:47 pm
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Danmark wrote:

This is a perfect example of the self righteous certitude

This attitude is prideful and runs contra to the many admonitions in the Bible against arrogance.


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