Will gays EVER be accepted by mainstream Christianity?

Debating issues regarding sexuality

Moderator: Moderators

KCKID
Guru
Posts: 1535
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:29 pm
Location: Townsville, Australia

Will gays EVER be accepted by mainstream Christianity?

Post #1

Post by KCKID »

The Mainstream Christian Church (i.e. the 'Christian Church' in general) appears to have an unshakable belief that gay people cannot possibly be Christians. Therefore gay people will always be regarded as 'lepers' because the mainstream Church believes that homosexuality is against the will of God and the actual practicing of such is a 'grave sin'. This is in spite of the fact that nowhere in the Bible is homosexuality referred to as a grave sin. This more comes from the minds of people who have received a life time of brainwashing into believing this. Where homosexual activity IS mentioned in scripture it almost always - in fact, PROBABLY always - refers to the practice of idolatry and not as WE today refer to homosexuality. There are those Christians who are so appalled at the notion that gay people might desire to integrate with 'actual Christians' within their Church community that they suggest gays start their own denomination ...minus the 'Christian' prefix, of course, which would be sacrilege. Such folks want nothing to do with homosexual people and their minds appear to be set on this.

Below is a recent item from The Guardian that tells of the plight of gay Christians in Uganda. In our particular neck of the woods (probably the majority of those of us who participate on the forum) gays have no fear of state imposed death or life imprisonment as do those in places such as Uganda. Gays do, however, have a stigma placed on them by most Christians that results in rejection by the mainstream Church and, indeed, by God himself. And, of course, the rejection of God is tantamount to death or, worse still, eternal torment. The latter makes the penalty imposed on gays in Uganda pale by comparison.

Will mainstream Christianity ever be accepting of people whose only 'sin' is that they happen to be gay ...i.e. an involuntary sexual attraction between two people of the same gender? If not, why not? Please, give your HONEST reasons.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/f ... ry-kampala

Sunday is a special day in Uganda, the conservative east African country that is threatening to put gay people behind bars for life. On Sunday you can see families flocking to churches all over the country for prayer, wearing their best clothes.

The sermons are predictable. Church leaders will pray for divine intervention against the corrupt leaders, poverty and the potholed roads, and then finally call doom upon the country's homosexuals who are sinning against the Christian God and ruining African culture.

But not at a tiny church tucked away in one of Kampala's suburbs. Here, gay people meet in devoted challenge to mainstream denominations that have declared them outcasts. With dread-locked hair and in jeans and bathroom slippers, members of this congregation would stand out in the prim and proper evangelical church I sometimes go to. I feel overdressed in my white dress.

"Here we are all about freedom," Pepe Onziema, a gay rights activist tells me. "It is a universal church. We welcome people whether gay or straight."

The gates may be open but the road to the church that calls itself a friendship and reconciliation centre is not paved with sleek cars or thronged with believers. The worshippers trickle in. They take their seats, but not before surveying the crowd furtively, trying to identify everyone. Their life depends on this vigilance.

In Uganda, police raid homes and arrest those they suspect to be gay. Homosexuality is an offence under the penal code. The president, Yoweri Museveni, refuses to pass a bill that seeks to strengthen the punishments for homosexuality to include life imprisonment, but isn’t under pressure to do so. Conservative Christian churches, under the auspices of the Uganda Joint Christian Council, refuse to accept homosexuals in spite of more gay-friendly approaches from parent churches abroad. The anti-gay furnace is fanned by American evangelical churches that have made it their mission to free Africa of homosexuality, saying it is alien to African culture.

The gay Ugandan church seeks to spread an alternative gospel of love and acceptance for all. On this particular Sunday, it is the memorial of David Kato, a gay rights activist who was murdered in 2011. So the numbers are bigger than usual. When the church was started by Bishop Christopher Senyonjo (who has since been thrown out of the Anglican Church for ministering to gay people), the gay community in Uganda attended devotedly. But with arrests and growing anti-gay sentiments, threats to their lives and arrests, fewer and fewer people come to the church.

"Our numbers have reduced ever since we started in 2008," Denis, the chaplain and a primary school teacher, tells me. "It is worse now that the bill has been passed." If Denis's employees knew of his orientation or his calling, he would certainly lose his job. "This is the only place we can feel at home. Here we can worship God without feeling guilty or fearing persecution."

Joining a gay congregation in Uganda is risky but Onziema says it is necessary in a society that greatly values community. For on Sundays, when many Ugandans spend time with their families, most gay people have nowhere to go. "Coming here lets us know that we are not alone and gives us the strength to continue the struggle," Onziema says.

You can see both hope and fear in the eyes of the congregation as they read Bible verses proclaiming God's protection over them and sing "What a friend we have in Jesus".

Here, there are no thunderous shouts of praise, speaking in tongues or Bible-thumping that is characteristic of the evangelism that is so trendy in the country. In the quiet worship of Uganda's gay community, there is a still hope and the kind of courage you can only muster after you have seen it all and there is nothing left to fear. Sunday is also the day gay people in Uganda cast off their masks to chat about the latest fashion, cars and celebrities.

"You thought we were going to pray that God stops the anti-homosexuality bill," Mugisha, the head of Sexual Minorities Uganda, asks me with laughter and mischief in his voice. "It will not pass. We do not need to pray for that."

Mugisha is for a moment free from his job, his life, fighting for the basic human rights of gay people. "I come here for the community. It is better than staying home alone," he says. As the service ends, members of the congregation are asked to say something in memory of David Kato, whose spirit of resilience they will need as they walk out of the church into their daily routine.

"We know he did not die in vain," Mugisha says. "One day we shall be accepted."

User avatar
Haven
Guru
Posts: 1803
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:23 pm
Location: Tremonton, Utah
Has thanked: 70 times
Been thanked: 52 times
Contact:

Re: Why not stop with gay churches?

Post #391

Post by Haven »

[color=olive]99percentatheism[/color] wrote: Really?

The term "anti-gay" describing the holding to the faith delivered only one to the saints, carries with it persecution.
Calling a person who holds anti-gay views "anti-gay" isn't persecution, it's truth. It's no different than calling an avowed racist skinhead "racist." Speaking the truth isn't persecution.
[color=blue]99[/color] wrote:Christians can be fired for being "anti-gay." Christian Craig James comes quickly to mind:
[color=indigo]Huffington Post[/color] wrote: During a debate in February 2012, James said that gay people would "answer to the Lord for their actions" and claimed that being gay was "a choice," according to USA Today. He also chastised opponent Tom Leppert for attending a gay pride parade.

- http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/0 ... 86832.html
Good! He should have been fired. The kinds of statements he was making were not only false (being gay is not a choice and "the Lord" can't be demonstrated to exist, let alone be homophobic), but unbelievably offensive and abusive to gay people. While free speech gives one the right to say what he wants, it doesn't give him carte blanche to verbally bludgeon others without consequences.
♥ Haven (she/her) ♥
♥ Kindness is the greatest adventure ♥

User avatar
Danmark
Site Supporter
Posts: 12697
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:58 am
Location: Seattle
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Why not stop with gay churches?

Post #392

Post by Danmark »

99percentatheism wrote:
Then end of issue. Allow the Christians that hold to the reality in the Bible to not have to endure the hate of being labeled as homophobes and bigots. LGBT's got their Denoms . . . and Bible-affirming Christians have theirs. I've always advocated for that. Nothing better than having a choice when salvation is at stake.
This is a perfect example of the self righteous certitude that is getting repudiated more and more by Christians who do fully accept scripture as the word of God, but believe in a dialogue and a community of Christians who discuss issues without pridefully insisting on their way as the only way. When someone claims to speak with authority that their own personal interpretation of the Bible is THE one and only interpretation, they are saying in effect, "I speak for God." This attitude is prideful and runs contra to the many admonitions in the Bible against arrogance. "Christians that hold to the reality in the Bible [sic]" is the equivalent of "I have decided what the Bible says; therefore I speak for God and anyone who disagrees with me is not a Christian."

connermt
Banned
Banned
Posts: 5199
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:58 pm
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Why not stop with gay churches?

Post #393

Post by connermt »

[Replying to post 384 by 99percentatheism]
"Gay people" or "gay people" is a labeling process that Christians did not invent
A claim I never made as I'm sure you know. What I DID claim is how you use it, which was in a negative manner - veiled insult as it were.
Allow the Christians that hold to the reality in the Bible to not have to endure the hate of being labeled as homophobes and bigots.
You refuse to accept that many do AND that you won't please everyone. You're taking the extremes and masquerading them as the standard, which is, above all else, dishonest.
Couldn't agree with that more [that christianity is evolving].
You don't have to agree with it to be true, but it's nice to see you accept reality.
Notice they are not leaving the faith though?
That affects you how, exactly?

The evolution of christianity is ongoing and, eventually, gay people will be accepted by mainstream christianity per the post question (even though they already have by many different christian sects)

User avatar
otseng
Savant
Posts: 20499
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:16 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA
Has thanked: 197 times
Been thanked: 335 times
Contact:

Post #394

Post by otseng »

Danmark wrote: This is a perfect example of the self righteous certitude

This attitude is prideful and runs contra to the many admonitions in the Bible against arrogance.
Moderator Comment

Please do not make judgments about another poster.

Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

99percentatheism
Banned
Banned
Posts: 3083
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:49 am

Why must "mainstream Christianity" celebrate homos

Post #395

Post by 99percentatheism »

Why must "mainstream Christianity" celebrate homosexuality?

Why can't homosexuals and their legion of supporters from the non-theist and liberal theological worldviews, just live their views in their own "denominations," or clubs and communities?

User avatar
Goat
Site Supporter
Posts: 24999
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:09 pm
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 207 times

Re: Why must "mainstream Christianity" celebrate h

Post #396

Post by Goat »

99percentatheism wrote: Why must "mainstream Christianity" celebrate homosexuality?

Why can't homosexuals and their legion of supporters from the non-theist and liberal theological worldviews, just live their views in their own "denominations," or clubs and communities?

Mainly, because certain Christians are trying to discriminate against them, and treat them as second class citizens. When there is legal equality for all, then there won't be this push back.

Until then.. the response that people will have to 'just shut uip' is to be vocal.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

KCKID
Guru
Posts: 1535
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:29 pm
Location: Townsville, Australia

Re: Why must "mainstream Christianity" celebrate h

Post #397

Post by KCKID »

99percentatheism wrote:Why must "mainstream Christianity" celebrate homosexuality?
Does "mainstream Christianity" celebrate heterosexuality? Homosexuals are asking nothing more than equality. They don't want you to 'celebrate' their homosexuality any more than you 'celebrate' heterosexuality.
99percentatheism wrote:Why can't homosexuals and their legion of supporters from the non-theist and liberal theological worldviews, just live their views in their own "denominations," or clubs and communities?
Well, the non-theists have no belief in a god so I'm not sure why they would want to belong to a 'denomination'. While I would question why a gay person would want to belong to a denomination that was not welcoming of them, the denomination in question has no scriptural basis for being 'unwelcoming'. They actually have more scriptural basis for being unwelcoming to divorcees and remarried people.

Perhaps ALL 'mainstream' denominations are in need of a complete overhaul since they don't appear to know what's going on. I mean, are they to abide by ALL of scripture, just SOME of scripture, or NONE of scripture? There most assuredly is great confusion within the 'mainstream Christian Church'. Thank God that I'm presently not a part of any of it.

User avatar
dianaiad
Site Supporter
Posts: 10220
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2010 12:30 pm
Location: Southern California

Re: Why must "mainstream Christianity" celebrate h

Post #398

Post by dianaiad »

KCKID wrote:
99percentatheism wrote:Why must "mainstream Christianity" celebrate homosexuality?
Does "mainstream Christianity" celebrate heterosexuality? Homosexuals are asking nothing more than equality. They don't want you to 'celebrate' their homosexuality any more than you 'celebrate' heterosexuality.
99percentatheism wrote:Why can't homosexuals and their legion of supporters from the non-theist and liberal theological worldviews, just live their views in their own "denominations," or clubs and communities?
Well, the non-theists have no belief in a god so I'm not sure why they would want to belong to a 'denomination'. While I would question why a gay person would want to belong to a denomination that was not welcoming of them, the denomination in question has no scriptural basis for being 'unwelcoming'. They actually have more scriptural basis for being unwelcoming to divorcees and remarried people.

Perhaps ALL 'mainstream' denominations are in need of a complete overhaul since they don't appear to know what's going on. I mean, are they to abide by ALL of scripture, just SOME of scripture, or NONE of scripture? There most assuredly is great confusion within the 'mainstream Christian Church'. Thank God that I'm presently not a part of any of it.
It seems to me that the consensus of the supporters of gay rights seem to think that the solution to any Christian (or other) objection to celebrating gay marriage is to change the religion. After all, they have no right to their own ideas, if those ideas differ from the critics, right?

I wonder if anybody sees a problem with this approach?

User avatar
Danmark
Site Supporter
Posts: 12697
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:58 am
Location: Seattle
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Why must "mainstream Christianity" celebrate h

Post #399

Post by Danmark »

dianaiad wrote:
It seems to me that the consensus of the supporters of gay rights seem to think that the solution to any Christian (or other) objection to celebrating gay marriage is to change the religion. After all, they have no right to their own ideas, if those ideas differ from the critics, right?

I wonder if anybody sees a problem with this approach?
I'm sorry to see that after a 5.4 week absence, this thread has been brought back.
I'd prefer to ignore this topic, but Dianaiad raises an interesting question.

I disagree with the assumption that the 'solution' is to 'change the religion.'
I also disagree with the assumption that proponents of individual rights, including those of 'gays' are "celebrating" gay marriage.

Of course, I can only speak for myself. I don't wish to, in any way, be critical of those who apparently have a sexual preference for those of the same sex. On a personal level, I do not understand it, but I accept it as a fact since their preference seems to be hard wired - why else would they suffer the indignities and prejudices they must endure as the price of following their feelings?

Like Brussel sprouts, cooked beets, and whatever that chemical that is added to Diet Coke, there are certain tastes that are repugnant to me. But I accept that others enjoy those flavors. I do not 'celebrate' the taste of Diet Coke or cauliflower, but neither do I condemn those who prefer it to my meat & potatoes diet [liberally fortified with wine and whisky].

Regarding what religion adds to the mix, the non religious have at least two approaches:
1. They can argue that the religion is not god inspired since it condemns a natural human trait that the individual experiences as a given rather than a choice; and...
2. They can use religious texts to demonstrate that the excuse for persecuting these minorities is not well founded even by the standards of those religions.

When I see a person who claims to be a 'Christian' act exactly like the prideful, self righteous Pharisee who Jesus condemned for exactly the same kind of behavior, I have a logical right to point out that the one who calls himself 'Christian' does not follow the example of Christ. This is a privilege I enjoy regardless of my private belief system.

KCKID
Guru
Posts: 1535
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:29 pm
Location: Townsville, Australia

Re: Why must "mainstream Christianity" celebrate h

Post #400

Post by KCKID »

dianaiad wrote:
KCKID wrote:
99percentatheism wrote:Why must "mainstream Christianity" celebrate homosexuality?
Does "mainstream Christianity" celebrate heterosexuality? Homosexuals are asking nothing more than equality. They don't want you to 'celebrate' their homosexuality any more than you 'celebrate' heterosexuality.
99percentatheism wrote:Why can't homosexuals and their legion of supporters from the non-theist and liberal theological worldviews, just live their views in their own "denominations," or clubs and communities?
Well, the non-theists have no belief in a god so I'm not sure why they would want to belong to a 'denomination'. While I would question why a gay person would want to belong to a denomination that was not welcoming of them, the denomination in question has no scriptural basis for being 'unwelcoming'. They actually have more scriptural basis for being unwelcoming to divorcees and remarried people.

Perhaps ALL 'mainstream' denominations are in need of a complete overhaul since they don't appear to know what's going on. I mean, are they to abide by ALL of scripture, just SOME of scripture, or NONE of scripture? There most assuredly is great confusion within the 'mainstream Christian Church'. Thank God that I'm presently not a part of any of it.
dianaiad wrote:It seems to me that the consensus of the supporters of gay rights seem to think that the solution to any Christian (or other) objection to celebrating gay marriage is to change the religion. After all, they have no right to their own ideas, if those ideas differ from the critics, right?
Well, I was mainly addressing the post of 99percent where he appears to be calling the shots with regard to "the true" Christian Church and its supposed scriptural basis to be unwelcoming to gay people ...hence his suggestion that gay people form their own denomination. He (99percent) also avoids using the term "Christian" denomination implying, of course, that such people cannot possibly be Christian. It's this kind of attitude that the gay person or the LGBT and gay marriage supporter would quite naturally find objectionable and contradictory to the gospel message of Jesus, not to mention the hypocrisy with regard to the "true Christian Church" that accepts certain 'sinners' but not other alleged 'sinners' ...hence my suggestion of a 'belief overhaul'.

So, again, does one's Church abide by ALL of scripture or just certain 'cherry-picked' scripture? There's confusion within Christian ranks and the re-evaluating of scripture HAS been found to be necessary within some Christian Churches. This is evidenced by more and more Christian denominations that are now welcoming of gay people. Would 99percent claim that such Churches are not now "Christian"?

But, that's a question for him to respond to.

Post Reply