Gay life vs. "homosexual" "acts"

Debating issues regarding sexuality

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East of Eden
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Post #71

Post by East of Eden »

Haven wrote:
[color=brown]East of Eden[/color] wrote: Was Jesus alone and miserable?


I don't know, he's been dead for nearly 2,000 years and left no records behind.


But a lot was written of Him, we know more about Jesus than just about any other ancient figure. It seems it isn't what you don't know that bothers you, but what you do know about Him.

Two things:

1) For the vast majority of people, loneliness is miserable. That's why people seek out partners.

2) You had the option of getting married. According to your worldview, I can't, simply because I happened to be born gay. There is no empirical evidence that same-sex relationships are harmful, and so no rational reason to prohibit them. So, how is prohibiting them anything more than blatant bigotry?


More name-calling, huh? I would support civil unions, but it is a complete farce to say two men can get married, and worse, adopt children. Tell me, what parent don't kids need, a mother or father?

It's not a caricature, but an accurate representation of the age, authorship, and content of the Bible. You base your homophobia


Are you Christaphobic?

on an ancient book full of absurdities and contradictions, and I rightly categorized the folly of that position.


Better old truths than new lies, and I again reject your false caricature.

This is absurd for several reasons:

1) The Christian god is said to be the creator of all things. Presumably, that includes gay people. "The fall" is irrelevant to this.


It is completely relevant. God's design didn't include the Fall, it came from a misuse of free will.

2) The Christian god is said to be omnipotent. From this and (1), it logically follows that he both allows and causes people to be born gay.


Again, you ignore free will gone wrong.

3) If the second Genesis creation myth is to be taken literally, the Biblical god orchestrated "the fall," making him responsible for it.


No He isn't, those like you who misuse free will are responsible for it.

In addition, Revelation 13:8 implies that the Christian god intentionally caused "the fall."


Bunk, how does being aware of the future mean 'cause'?

From this, it follows that even if gayness is a product of the fall, the Biblical god is still its author, and the injustice of homophobia remains.

4) There is no empirical evidence that being gay is a "negative pathology." To say it's pathological is to beg the question for your worldview, which is fallacious.


Your opinion is noted.

Cancer and alcoholism are both demonstrably harmful. Homosexuality isn't, so comparing it to cancer and alcoholism is disingenuous at best.


Not really. http://www.catholiceducation.org/articl ... o0075.html
"We are fooling ourselves if we imagine that we can ever make the authentic Gospel popular......it is too simple in an age of rationalism; too narrow in an age of pluralism; too humiliating in an age of self-confidence; too demanding in an age of permissiveness; and too unpatriotic in an age of blind nationalism." Rev. John R.W. Stott, CBE

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East of Eden
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Post #72

Post by East of Eden »

Wootah wrote: :warning: Moderator Final Warning
Is the term 'sexual perversion' also off-limits?
I can use 'abomination' like God said in the Bible if you prefer.

Hi East of Eden,

This is a civil debate forum because we want people from different beliefs to be able to interact and discuss those beliefs in a safe place. You need to consider others in your choice of words.

Words like abomination or pervert are ad hominems.


No it isn't, they are quoting the Bible. Is that now off limits on a religion forum?

This means that to use a word like perversion you need to justify it first and think whether you still need to use it second.

This goes for words like, evil, homophobe, racist, bigot, leftie, socialist, communist, fox news watcher and so on.


And yet in post 68 Haven uses two of those words and you don't say a damn thing about it. The same goes for the jerk moderator Danmark who regularly uses such offensive terminology. I've seen moderators here call conservative politicians 'morons' and get away with it. The bias is sickening. I was once called for plagiarism after putting quotation marks around a quote and giving a source. I still don't know what the phony probation was about.

What I'm trying to say Wootah, is that this is YOUR final warning, I'm done with this 'debate' forum. It is nothing but a liberal circle-jerk. The atheists here, who are far out of proportion to normal America, can continue to tell each other how smart they are and give each other awards, my time is valuable and I will spend it elsewhere. I would encourage others tired of the nonsense of this repressive and boring forum to explore other debate options on the internet, there are LOTS of them out there. I know, and in none of them that I participate in do I get the harassment I do here.

Make that used to get.

:whistle:
"We are fooling ourselves if we imagine that we can ever make the authentic Gospel popular......it is too simple in an age of rationalism; too narrow in an age of pluralism; too humiliating in an age of self-confidence; too demanding in an age of permissiveness; and too unpatriotic in an age of blind nationalism." Rev. John R.W. Stott, CBE

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Post #73

Post by otseng »

East of Eden wrote: And yet in post 68 Haven uses two of those words and you don't say a damn thing about it. The same goes for the jerk moderator Danmark who regularly uses such offensive terminology. I've seen moderators here call conservative politicians 'morons' and get away with it. The bias is sickening. I was once called for plagiarism after putting quotation marks around a quote and giving a source. I still don't know what the phony probation was about.

What I'm trying to say Wootah, is that this is YOUR final warning, I'm done with this 'debate' forum. It is nothing but a liberal circle-jerk. The atheists here, who are far out of proportion to normal America, can continue to tell each other how smart they are and give each other awards, my time is valuable and I will spend it elsewhere. I would encourage others tired of the nonsense of this repressive and boring forum to explore other debate options on the internet, there are LOTS of them out there. I know, and in none of them that I participate in do I get the harassment I do here.
:warning: Moderator Warning


You have over 200 reports against you, putting you in the 3rd spot of overall offenders. You are also on probation. Comments like these is basically going to just seal your fate here, even if you do decide to leave.

As for other people violating the rules, anyone is free to report them, even if the post is from a moderator. If someone does violate the rules, it does not give another an excuse to violate the rules also.

Please review our Rules.

______________

Moderator warnings count as a strike against users. Additional violations in the future may warrant a final warning. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

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East of Eden
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Post #74

Post by East of Eden »

otseng wrote:
East of Eden wrote: And yet in post 68 Haven uses two of those words and you don't say a damn thing about it. The same goes for the jerk moderator Danmark who regularly uses such offensive terminology. I've seen moderators here call conservative politicians 'morons' and get away with it. The bias is sickening. I was once called for plagiarism after putting quotation marks around a quote and giving a source. I still don't know what the phony probation was about.

What I'm trying to say Wootah, is that this is YOUR final warning, I'm done with this 'debate' forum. It is nothing but a liberal circle-jerk. The atheists here, who are far out of proportion to normal America, can continue to tell each other how smart they are and give each other awards, my time is valuable and I will spend it elsewhere. I would encourage others tired of the nonsense of this repressive and boring forum to explore other debate options on the internet, there are LOTS of them out there. I know, and in none of them that I participate in do I get the harassment I do here.
:warning: Moderator Warning


You have over 200 reports against you,


And about 198 of them frivolous. You are under no obligation to act on reports with no justification. Does a frivolous report count against you?

putting you in the 3rd spot of overall offenders. You are also on probation.


Really? What comes next, double secret probation. You people have been on my probation list a long time.

Comments like these is basically going to just seal your fate here, even if you do decide to leave.


You misunderstand me, Otseng, I don't intend to continue here no matter what you decide.

As for other people violating the rules, anyone is free to report them, even if the post is from a moderator.


I doesn't do any good. I reported one of your mods once for calling a conservative politician a moron and nothing happened.
"We are fooling ourselves if we imagine that we can ever make the authentic Gospel popular......it is too simple in an age of rationalism; too narrow in an age of pluralism; too humiliating in an age of self-confidence; too demanding in an age of permissiveness; and too unpatriotic in an age of blind nationalism." Rev. John R.W. Stott, CBE

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East of Eden
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Post #75

Post by East of Eden »

otseng wrote:
East of Eden wrote: And yet in post 68 Haven uses two of those words and you don't say a damn thing about it. The same goes for the jerk moderator Danmark who regularly uses such offensive terminology. I've seen moderators here call conservative politicians 'morons' and get away with it. The bias is sickening. I was once called for plagiarism after putting quotation marks around a quote and giving a source. I still don't know what the phony probation was about.

What I'm trying to say Wootah, is that this is YOUR final warning, I'm done with this 'debate' forum. It is nothing but a liberal circle-jerk. The atheists here, who are far out of proportion to normal America, can continue to tell each other how smart they are and give each other awards, my time is valuable and I will spend it elsewhere. I would encourage others tired of the nonsense of this repressive and boring forum to explore other debate options on the internet, there are LOTS of them out there. I know, and in none of them that I participate in do I get the harassment I do here.
:warning: Moderator Warning


You have over 200 reports against you,


And about 198 of them are frivolous. Do they count against me? I understand what the atheists here can't debate against they make up for in a blizzard of these silly complaints.

putting you in the 3rd spot of overall offenders. You are also on probation.


Really? What comes next, double secret probation? You guys have been on my probation list a long time.

Comments like these is basically going to just seal your fate here, even if you do decide to leave.


You misunderstand me Otseng, I'm done here no matter what you decide. I concluded a long time ago my time is much better spent on other, better forums. Their forum layout and technology is much better than this one, FWIW.

As for other people violating the rules, anyone is free to report them, even if the post is from a moderator.


It doesn't do any good. I routinely report being called bigoted and homophobe, which a mod just said is against the rules, and nothing happens. I once reported a mod that called Michelle Bachmann a 'moron' and nothing happened. There are no consistent rules here, like the Supreme Court, the rules mean whatever the elites want.

:?
"We are fooling ourselves if we imagine that we can ever make the authentic Gospel popular......it is too simple in an age of rationalism; too narrow in an age of pluralism; too humiliating in an age of self-confidence; too demanding in an age of permissiveness; and too unpatriotic in an age of blind nationalism." Rev. John R.W. Stott, CBE

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Post #76

Post by KCKID »

KCKID wrote:So, obedience to 'the will of God' and its many variations is dependent on the time that one happens to live in ...right?
East of Eden wrote:Not really, adultery was wrong on the OT and the NT, although the punishments were different.
If you're still participating East of Eden, where in scripture were the changes for the punishment for adultery made? Also, the Christian catch-cry is that God never changes so how could there have been a change?

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Re: Gay life vs. "homosexual" "acts"

Post #77

Post by 99percentatheism »

Haven wrote: Many anti-gay fundamentalist Christians oppose equal rights for the lesbian, gay, and bisexual (LGB) community on the basis that sexual acts between members of the same sex are immoral according to Christian scripture and teaching. These individuals often equate queer identities with those sexual acts, and use that connection to argue in favor of denying LGB people equal protection under the law.

While I dispute that the Bible condemns same-sex sex, for the sake of this discussion I will accept the premise that they is wrong under Christianity.

That aside, homosexuality, and, more broadly, gay life, is so much more than what we do in the bedroom. One's sexuality impacts her/his relationships (obviously), social activities, choice of friends, civil rights, (and often) appearance, voice, and other characteristics. These have nothing to do with sexual acts, but are all part of gay (and straight!) experiences.

Debate question: Is gay life all about "homosexual" "acts?" Is there more to the LGB experience than sex? Should LGB people have fewer rights because some conservative Christians don't like gay sex?
When was "gay life" invented as a defining term?

Only an LGB person can answer the question about the LGB "experience." it is nothing a Christian should get involved in answering.

Should Conservative Christians have fewer rights than people that engage in or promote engaging "homosexual" acts? Remember, same gender marriage never was legal, so nothing was ever denied that was never offered in the first place.

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Post #78

Post by 99percentatheism »

KCKID wrote:
KCKID wrote:So, obedience to 'the will of God' and its many variations is dependent on the time that one happens to live in ...right?
East of Eden wrote:Not really, adultery was wrong on the OT and the NT, although the punishments were different.
If you're still participating East of Eden, where in scripture were the changes for the punishment for adultery made? Also, the Christian catch-cry is that God never changes so how could there have been a change?
When have two wrongs ever made a right in the Bible? We have Judah committing adultery with his daughter in law and he wasn't stoned. Nor she. Those wrongs weren't covered up.

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Post #79

Post by bluethread »

99percentatheism wrote:
KCKID wrote:
KCKID wrote:So, obedience to 'the will of God' and its many variations is dependent on the time that one happens to live in ...right?
East of Eden wrote:Not really, adultery was wrong on the OT and the NT, although the punishments were different.
If you're still participating East of Eden, where in scripture were the changes for the punishment for adultery made? Also, the Christian catch-cry is that God never changes so how could there have been a change?
When have two wrongs ever made a right in the Bible? We have Judah committing adultery with his daughter in law and he wasn't stoned. Nor she. Those wrongs weren't covered up.
Who would have stoned him? Judah, the individual, wasn't part of the nation of Israel. Plus, that was to provide the near kinsman obligation to Tamar. However, this near kinsman obligation does rise the question regarding a pre-existent Torah, ie that part of what Moshe' wrote down was understood to be common law prior to him writing it down.

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Post #80

Post by 99percentatheism »

bluethread wrote:
99percentatheism wrote:
KCKID wrote:
KCKID wrote:So, obedience to 'the will of God' and its many variations is dependent on the time that one happens to live in ...right?
East of Eden wrote:Not really, adultery was wrong on the OT and the NT, although the punishments were different.
If you're still participating East of Eden, where in scripture were the changes for the punishment for adultery made? Also, the Christian catch-cry is that God never changes so how could there have been a change?
When have two wrongs ever made a right in the Bible? We have Judah committing adultery with his daughter in law and he wasn't stoned. Nor she. Those wrongs weren't covered up.
Who would have stoned him? Judah, the individual, wasn't part of the nation of Israel. Plus, that was to provide the near kinsman obligation to Tamar. However, this near kinsman obligation does rise the question regarding a pre-existent Torah, ie that part of what Moshe' wrote down was understood to be common law prior to him writing it down.
"The Law," (Torah) was obviously present as Judah called for Tamar's execution because of her alleged involvement in "prostitution." So "Godly" morality and expectations seem to be consistent right? So looking at the OP, we have the Biblical incompatibility of both what is called "gay life" AND homosexual acts as neither can find justification in any part of the Bible OT or NT.

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