Which side of this proposition do you live on:
All you have to do is knock on any door and say, "If you let me in, I'll think the way you want me to think, and live the way you want me to live", and all the blinds will go up and all the windows will open, and you'll never be lonely ever again.
Are you willing to sacrifice social acceptance, even with your family, to stand up for what's truly right? I'm not talking risking your life or going to jail or such, and obviously the issue has to be something that you believe is important.
How important is doing the right thing to you
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Re: How important is doing the right thing to you
Post #2Social acceptance has never been high on my list. I think when I was quite young it was to some degree. I did do things when I was young because of "peer pressure". But in hindsight I think that was more just plain stupidity rather than truly worrying about being rejected or trying to impress someone.ThePainefulTruth wrote: Are you willing to sacrifice social acceptance,
I think there's a difference between trying to impress someone, and feeling a sense of responsibility of not wanting to "let them down". I think a lot of peer pressure is actually a misguided desire to actually "Do the right thing" even though it's actually not the right thing to do. In might seem like "The right thing to do" in that social context (precisely because of the peer pressure).
But I personally got over that pretty quick. To day and for the last 40 years or more I couldn't care less what other people think of me. Especially if their judgments are based upon false assumptions or immoral expectations.
I probably would care what other people think if they thought I was an immoral criminal. Basically because that's not true. So in that sense I do care that people actually consider the truth and don't think poorly of me for false reasons that don't apply.
Typically my family has always stood up for what's right too. Although my family was "Christian" and I actually rejected that religion quite early on. But my family didn't make a big deal about it. Even though they were Christians they weren't fundamentalists. They didn't think it was important what you believe, but rather what they felt was important was your moral values and my family always recognized and respected my moral values as being high moral values.ThePainefulTruth wrote: even with your family, to stand up for what's truly right?
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I do think there is a problem with the term "Truly Right". Who's to say precisely what's "truly right"?
I'm happy with my moral values, and what other people feel is moral is their business. I don't try to push my moral values on them and I hope that they will do the same for me.
Some exceptions may apply. If their moral values have them harming others in ways that I feel are immoral I may actively take a stance for those being harmed. And this can potentially include animals, or even ecosystems.
My moral values harm none. So I can't see anyone complaining about my moral values on these same grounds.
[center]
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]
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Re: How important is doing the right thing to you
Post #3[Replying to post 2 by Divine Insight]
Yeah, I think only the very rare individual doesn't care what others think. Our socialization is in our DNA. The issue is whether we make our decisions based on social pressure or on actual moral and virtuous ideals.
I think when you say that you're thinking about virtues. Is it really only other people's business if they think child sacrifice, murder, slavery, genocide, rape etc. etc. is their business?
Yeah, I think only the very rare individual doesn't care what others think. Our socialization is in our DNA. The issue is whether we make our decisions based on social pressure or on actual moral and virtuous ideals.
I think virtues are subjective, but we must find a common moral code that protects the rights of all people equally from trespass by other majorities, minorities or individuals--and limits our legislation to prohibit only those violations. That way it's much simpler and easy to understand. The root of all immorality is a legal/moral double standard. We can work on virtues outside of the law. If a group thinks anyone who participates in prostitution is going to hell, that's their right to believe that and to convince others of it and to exert social pressure to accomplish it.I do think there is a problem with the term "Truly Right". Who's to say precisely what's "truly right"?
I'm happy with my moral values, and what other people feel is moral is their business.
I think when you say that you're thinking about virtues. Is it really only other people's business if they think child sacrifice, murder, slavery, genocide, rape etc. etc. is their business?
Again....I don't try to push my moral values on them and I hope that they will do the same for me.
It can't be in ways that you feel is immoral, it has to be in ways that reasonably apply to everyone, concerning interpersonal violation of rights to life, liberty, property and self-defense.Some exceptions may apply. If their moral values have them harming others in ways that I feel are immoral I may actively take a stance for those being harmed. And this can potentially include animals, or even ecosystems.
Again, I think you're using religion's definition of morality which varies insanely across the religious spectrum.My moral values harm none. So I can't see anyone complaining about my moral values on these same grounds.
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Re: How important is doing the right thing to you
Post #4Depends on the specifics. I would not go out of my way to throw social acceptance away to make a point. I'd rather smile and make excuse to leave a conversation when caught by a proselytizing theist. I would roll my eyes and move on when I hear someone calling evolution "just a theory" in real life. I just don't like causing a scene.ThePainefulTruth wrote: Are you willing to sacrifice social acceptance, even with your family, to stand up for what's truly right? I'm not talking risking your life or going to jail or such, and obviously the issue has to be something that you believe is important.
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Re: How important is doing the right thing to you
Post #5Yes, but we can't always dodge a question or issue. Sooner or later we're put in situations where we have to make a stand, or let it be assumed that our silence as consent. Are there no hills you're prepared to die on, metaphorically speaking? The only thing necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing. If you aren't willing to take a stand in conversation, the next step could well be whether or not to take a stand in court, or on the battlefield.Bust Nak wrote:Depends on the specifics. I would not go out of my way to throw social acceptance away to make a point. I'd rather smile and make excuse to leave a conversation when caught by a proselytizing theist. I would roll my eyes and move on when I hear someone calling evolution "just a theory" in real life. I just don't like causing a scene.ThePainefulTruth wrote: Are you willing to sacrifice social acceptance, even with your family, to stand up for what's truly right? I'm not talking risking your life or going to jail or such, and obviously the issue has to be something that you believe is important.
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Re: How important is doing the right thing to you
Post #6I would go on potests, sign petitions and so on, but nothing that involve personal confrontations. Getting personal, or putting yourself in position for someone to get personal with you, is just not worth it. We can achieve what we want "diplomatically" for lack of a better word. By what we want, I have legalised abortion, same sex marriage, right to die, banning creationism and radicalisation in schools in mind. I voted I don't know. I simple do not see the need sacrifice social acceptance yet. If a need for sacrifice ever emerges, then perhaps, or perhaps not. You know, I would actually feel more comfortable taking a stand in court than taking a stand in conversation. Courts is the place for settling what is right thing.ThePainefulTruth wrote:Yes, but we can't always dodge a question or issue. Sooner or later we're put in situations where we have to make a stand, or let it be assumed that our silence as consent. Are there no hills you're prepared to die on, metaphorically speaking? The only thing necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing. If you aren't willing to take a stand in conversation, the next step could well be whether or not to take a stand in court, or on the battlefield.Bust Nak wrote:Depends on the specifics. I would not go out of my way to throw social acceptance away to make a point. I'd rather smile and make excuse to leave a conversation when caught by a proselytizing theist. I would roll my eyes and move on when I hear someone calling evolution "just a theory" in real life. I just don't like causing a scene.ThePainefulTruth wrote: Are you willing to sacrifice social acceptance, even with your family, to stand up for what's truly right? I'm not talking risking your life or going to jail or such, and obviously the issue has to be something that you believe is important.
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Post #7
I'm not saying you should seek out confrontations, but if someone confronted you with a statement, say, advocating mandatory creationism is public schools, in front of an audience--you'd just do nothing?
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Post #8
So basically when confrontation came to me, where there is an audience who might treat slience as accepting defeat? Then I would answer him point by point, in a matter of fact tone. Much like how I operate online.ThePainefulTruth wrote: I'm not saying you should seek out confrontations, but if someone confronted you with a statement, say, advocating mandatory creationism is public schools, in front of an audience--you'd just do nothing?
But that has more to do with not wanting to lose than doing the right thing. Winning debates doesn't solve anything. Voting the right politian into office, is where the battle is won.
Post #9
[Replying to post 8 by Bust Nak]
Winning debates gets the right politicians voted into office
Staying silent and making one vote doesn't make a difference.
(Though there's certainly nothing wrong with the latter, it's just not as productive)
Winning debates gets the right politicians voted into office
Staying silent and making one vote doesn't make a difference.
(Though there's certainly nothing wrong with the latter, it's just not as productive)
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Post #10
And how do we get the right politician voted into office? Putting up signs, contributing and anonymously advocating for a candidate online? Is that all there is? Is that really enough?Bust Nak wrote:So basically when confrontation came to me, where there is an audience who might treat slience as accepting defeat? Then I would answer him point by point, in a matter of fact tone. Much like how I operate online.ThePainefulTruth wrote: I'm not saying you should seek out confrontations, but if someone confronted you with a statement, say, advocating mandatory creationism is public schools, in front of an audience--you'd just do nothing?
But that has more to do with not wanting to lose than doing the right thing. Winning debates doesn't solve anything. Voting the right politian into office, is where the battle is won.