Pressing matters of the day and of all time, debated among thoughtful participants of all faiths

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

Reply to topic
Elijah John
First Post
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:47 pm  What's at stake? Reply with quote

Assuming that Jesus is not God, there seems to be a clear violation of the first commandment, that we are to have "no other gods before me (YHVH)".

What is at stake here, how serious an infraction of God's primary law is worshiping Jesus?

Does the gravity of this situation make those who worship Jesus more biased in favor of keeping Jesus as their God and the object of their worship, rather than opening themselves to evidence of the contrary?

Two or three things occur to me, that I will share after some replies.

I think that most Evangelicals swear that those who DO NOT worship Jesus spend eternity in hell...pretty high stakes.

But what if they are wrong, what if the reverse is true, what if there is punishment FOR worshiping Jesus, if he is NOT God? What then are the stakes, if worshiping Jesus is indeed a form of idolatry?
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 21: Wed Oct 01, 2014 2:46 pm
Reply

Like this post
Am I sensing a presumption here of Biblical literalism and the idea that a religion cannot evolve in its understanding of God as human understanding in general increases?

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
MPG Recipient Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 22: Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:22 pm
Reply

Like this post
Divine Insight:

Quote:

You are basically claiming that the New Testament is filled with lies.


Since the Gospels are not biographies of the historical Jesus, it makes no sense to say that they are either factually true or based on lies. The writers of these texts would certainly not have looked at it that way. They were trying to create a liturgy for the fledgling church like the Jews have with the Torah. It was only later (in pagan hands, I might add) that some Christian communities began to mistake them for literal history.

Quote:

John.3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


The Gospel of John is the most mystical of the four Gospels: it is also the most misunderstood and misused. What does it mean to believe "in the name of the only begotten Son of God"? Is this a reference to the historical Jesus or to what Jesus points to? The cosmic Christ to which we all belong in potential?

Quote:

John.5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:


In other words we judge ourselves--we condemn ourselves.

Quote:

John.14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Before they were called Christians, the followers of Jesus were referred to as the People of the Way. So what was the emphasis of the earliest Christians? The identity of the historical Jesus or a spiritual path that he taught? And what is that "way"? In Christian vocabulary it is death and resurrection. Other faiths use different language, but the path is the same. It IS the ONLY way. So it is not about having the correct beliefs concerning the man Jesus. It is about walking the path he taught.

Quote:

And there are many more places in the NT where this sort of rhetoric is claimed. Now you may point out that the NT also contains many contradictions to these claims as well, but all that shows is that overall the fables aren't consistent.


I'm not sure you realize the invalidity of your either/or thinking when you refer to the Gospels as "fables." They are liturgical texts pointing to spiritual truths. Consistency isn't required.

Quote:

You keep calling yourself a "Christian Deist" but clearly you don't believe in Christianity at all. You basically just reject out-of-hand anything you don't want to believe and cling only to the parts that you would like to be true. And I hope you don't take this as a personal comment because it's just a fact based upon what you have been posting ever since you joined this forum.


I suppose since I am a nontheist Christian (akin to such Christian scholars as Marcus Borg and Bishop John Shelby Spong), you might also accuse me of "rejecting" Christianity. I don't refer to myself as a Deist; but I also do not believe in an omnipotent, interventionist God. And I am no fringe element within the Christian community. I am part of a movement called Progressive Christianity that is taking place in mainline denominations (I'm an Episcopalian myself) and, thanks to the internet and social media, is growing larger and stronger every day. Our main premise is that our views of God, Jesus, and the Bible must evolve if Christianity is to remain relevant. I believe we represent the future of the religion.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 23: Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:24 pm
Reply
Re: What's at stake?

Like this post
[quote="Elijah John"]
Quote:
I think that most Evangelicals swear that those who DO NOT worship Jesus spend eternity in hell...pretty high stakes.

But what if they are wrong, what if the reverse is true, what if there is punishment FOR worshiping Jesus, if he is NOT God? What then are the stakes, if worshiping Jesus is indeed a form of idolatry?

What do you mean by "worship"?

The scripture says:
Jn:14:6: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

What can you say about a man with that much power?
Is "thank you Lord", too much? Think

I think it is quite fine to Praise the Lord Jesus especially since our praises to GOD are accepted/accomplished through Him.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 24: Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:39 pm
Reply

Like this post
[quote="kayky"]

Quote:
I suppose since I am a nontheist Christian (akin to such Christian scholars as Marcus Borg and Bishop John Shelby Spong), you might also accuse me of "rejecting" Christianity. I don't refer to myself as a Deist; but I also do not believe in an omnipotent, interventionist God. And I am no fringe element within the Christian community. I am part of a movement called Progressive Christianity that is taking place in mainline denominations (I'm an Episcopalian myself) and, thanks to the internet and social media, is growing larger and stronger every day. Our main premise is that our views of God, Jesus, and the Bible must evolve if Christianity is to remain relevant. I believe we represent the future of the religion.

And I believe this "movement" is part of a new age scheme to undermine "Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, and to day and forever" truth. Heb:13:8:

That is what I meant about "liberal" Christianity that is sin. This attitude promotes freedom at the expense of truth.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 25: Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:09 pm
Reply

Like this post
Progressive Christianity has nothing to do with "New Age" (a catchall term applied by conservatives to anything they don't understand.) Many of us are folks who left fundamentalist/evangelical churches because we realized that much of what was taught there was no longer tenable in a postmodern world. We do not "undermine" Jesus Christ. We celebrate him.

The Christianity of the past 1800 years (or so) is so far removed from the actual teachings of Jesus that he would not recognize its creeds at all. I think it has been the traditional Church that has undermined Jesus Christ.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 26: Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:31 pm
Reply

Like this post
[Replying to post 24 by YahDough]

I am a THEIST Christian, or more accurately a Deistic Christian, and I too am a fan of the authors that Kay cites.

And she is right, progressive Christians CELEBRATE Jesus, sometimes too much from my point of view, if they forget the Father.

You Fundamentalists do not own Jesus, and telling others they are sinning because they follow a more progressive form of Christianity is just wrong.

Remember, Jesus was a reformer. Who's to say that reform does not, must not or cannot continue?

I'm guessing you are not a Roman Catholic. If not, you too are following a somewhat progressive form of Christianity, are you not? In the form or Protestantism, a rigid FORM of Protestism, but Protestantism just the same.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 27: Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:18 pm
Reply

Like this post
[Replying to post 22 by kayky]

If I understand this correctly I am in almost complete agreement. One can find value in religion and in Christianity in particular by not taking the Bible literally and by trying to grasp and follow the message of Jesus.

Again, if I understand, this is a belief that does not require a literal interpretation of the Bible or a claim that a 'God' is really there, to use Francis Schaeffer's terminology. This thinking reflects a Jesus who was not divine and in fact a disbelief in divinity or at least in a theistic divinity. Therefore there is no supernatural, personal presence in the universe.

I agree with all of this, but then how is this different from plain old non theism? Not that there is anything wrong with that.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 28: Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:21 pm
Reply

Like this post
[quote="kayky"]
Quote:
Progressive Christianity has nothing to do with "New Age" (a catchall term applied by conservatives to anything they don't understand.)

That's not always true. "We" know we cannot change/modify the Gospel.
Gal:1:8: But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Quote:
Many of us are folks who left fundamentalist/evangelical churches because we realized that much of what was taught there was no longer tenable in a postmodern world. We do not "undermine" Jesus Christ. We celebrate him.

What Christian Church teachings do/did you find "untenable"?

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 29: Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:25 pm
Reply

Like this post
kayky wrote:

I suppose since I am a nontheist Christian (akin to such Christian scholars as Marcus Borg and Bishop John Shelby Spong), you might also accuse me of "rejecting" Christianity. I don't refer to myself as a Deist; but I also do not believe in an omnipotent, interventionist God. And I am no fringe element within the Christian community. I am part of a movement called Progressive Christianity that is taking place in mainline denominations (I'm an Episcopalian myself) and, thanks to the internet and social media, is growing larger and stronger every day. Our main premise is that our views of God, Jesus, and the Bible must evolve if Christianity is to remain relevant. I believe we represent the future of the religion.


Hi Kayky,

I actually have no problem with your non-theistic view of Christianity.

I can fully understand and accept the abstract idea that Jesus was preaching in metaphors. In fact, I personally believe that the actual "Jesus" (if he actually existed) was most likely a Jewish Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva or equivalent.

I have no problem with your suggestion:

kayky wrote:

The Gospel of John is the most mystical of the four Gospels: it is also the most misunderstood and misused. What does it mean to believe "in the name of the only begotten Son of God"? Is this a reference to the historical Jesus or to what Jesus points to? The cosmic Christ to which we all belong in potential?


Except with that last part you added speaking of "The Cosmic Christ to which we all belong" Why call God "Christ"?

This same sentiment can be said of Buddha, and many other spiritual sages. In fact, when you get into the actual essence of what Jesus basically taught it's no different from what Buddha taught. Therefore Buddha and Jesus were pointing at the same thing.

In fact, I have been arguing for this interpretation for many years, and I point to the following verses as "Gospel Proof":

John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

I totally accept this. It is unimportant to believe in Jesus or his words. But when I point to the verse the Christians are quick to point to the very next verse thinking that his will be my demise:

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

I have no problem with John 12:48. On the contrary, John 12:48 is where I find my salvation.

I'll me more than happy to be judged by the word the Jesus had spoken. This is where the Christians simply don't understand. They think it's all about the ego of Jesus, when in fact it has nothing at all to do with Jesus.

You also say:

kayky wrote:

In other words we judge ourselves--we condemn ourselves.


I absolutely agree. We do judge ourselves. But that judgement does not need to be a condemnation. In fact, why did you only offer that option? Think

Why didn't you say, "In other words we judge ourselves--we are our own salvation?

Why dwell on condemnation? Think

What did Jesus preach? Well according to Luke he preached the following:

Luke.6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

According to Jesus these are the words he has spoken by which I will be judged in the last day.

I Judge no one in terms of morality. Therefore I will not be judged according to the words of Jesus.

I condemn no one on moral grounds. Therefore I will not be condemned according to the words of Jesus.

I forgive everyone who has trespassed against me. Therefore I will be forgiven for any trespasses I may have done to others.

These are the words of Jesus by which I shall be judged according to these Gospels.

As far as actual "sins" are concerned, I'm not the least bit concerned about that. I personally don't believe I have any sins that are worthy of consideration. Any "sins" I may be guilty of are so petty as to not even be worth mentioning.

~~~~~

So I have no problem with the Gospel as you appear to be viewing it. However, I wouldn't call your view of the Gospels "Christianity". It's not the standard view of that religion. So why even bother trying to keep that label alive? Think

You say:

kayky wrote:

Our main premise is that our views of God, Jesus, and the Bible must evolve if Christianity is to remain relevant. I believe we represent the future of the religion.


I think a hardcore Christian has already chimed on that one. The orthodox biblical scripture do not allow for "religious evolution". They demand that nothing be added or taken away. The original dogma was not intended to "evolve" with modern societies.

So while I can embrace a view of Jesus that shares your ideals, that view also applies to Buddha equally well. And it actually doesn't apply to the Old Testament very well at all.

So I would personally say that while you are viewing this as "Progressive Christianity", many people including myself, basically see it as a rejection of orthodox Christianity and instead it's a view of Jesus that truly doesn't match up with the whole virgin-born demigod being raised from grave scenario.

There would actually be no need for any of that in a religion where Jesus was just teaching in metaphors.

~~~~

In fact, let me ask you this:

Do you believe that Jesus was an actual real person?

And more importantly, do you believe that he was indeed crucified?

And if so, how does any of that fit in with the metaphorical view of Jesus?

Why would a brutal crucifixion be required to teach these metaphorical lessons?


Last edited by Divine Insight on Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:53 pm; edited 1 time in total

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 30: Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:31 pm
Reply
Re: What's at stake?

Like this post
[quote="YahDough"]
Elijah John wrote:

Quote:
I think that most Evangelicals swear that those who DO NOT worship Jesus spend eternity in hell...pretty high stakes.

But what if they are wrong, what if the reverse is true, what if there is punishment FOR worshiping Jesus, if he is NOT God? What then are the stakes, if worshiping Jesus is indeed a form of idolatry?

What do you mean by "worship"?

The scripture says:
Jn:14:6: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

What can you say about a man with that much power?
Is "thank you Lord", too much? Think

I think it is quite fine to Praise the Lord Jesus especially since our praises to GOD are accepted/accomplished through Him.


Good question. By worship I mean praying,thanking and praising and petitioning directed to God.

You see Jesus as mediator to God, at least, and maybe even as God Himself?

Well, the way I see John 14.6 is that Jesus was saying that HIS way was THE WAY, as opposed to the Jewish TEMPLE Priesthood way. That is an interpretation I learned from one of those dreaded progressive Christian authors, Marcus Borg, which Kay referenced.

But what if you are wrong...as an Evangelical (and Bible Literalist?) you believe in hell. Do you think God would send you there for worshiping Jesus if it turns out he is NOT YHVH?

If so, the stakes for you are very high, by your own absolutist Heaven or Hell standards.

Before I put all my eggs in the Jesus-is-God basket, I would want to make sure that basket will hold.

Even though we disagree, and come to the question from differing perspectives, I think we both agree it is an important question.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Display posts from previous:   

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

Jump to:  
Facebook
Tweet

 




On The Web | Ecodia | Hymn Lyrics Apps
Facebook | Twitter

Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group.   Produced by Ecodia.

Igloo   |  Lo-Fi Version