Did Lucifer fall in heaven or in the Garden of Eden?
I was comparing the passages used to describe Lucifer's fall and Genesis 1-3 and I found many similarities between the two, and currently believe Lucifer's fall occurred in the Garden of Eden.
I have also looked at a few possible problems such as one addressed by Don Stewart.
"The description given here could hardly refer to the earthly Garden of Eden. In the Garden of Eden, there is no reference to gold or precious stones. "
However this is not true.
Genesis 2:12-14
10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
Just curious on other people's thoughts.
Did Lucifer fall in heaven or in the Garden of Eden?
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trumpet_guy
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Re: Did Lucifer fall in heaven or in the Garden of Eden?
Post #31[Replying to post 29 by Yahu]
you dumbass. lol if negroes are not from Ham, they canr be from cush! wtf are you smoking. Yes king nimrod was black. but heres a newsflash for you blind soul. ALL CIVILIZATION WAS DARK SKIN PRIOR TO AND AFTER THE FLOOD! Noah ham shem and japheth were all dark skin. how in the fucks sake can Ham be the forefather of a genetically dominant gene (dark skin) without him being dark skin as well? use your head.
You been super brainwashed. If Ham was black, His FATHER had to be black too! White people hadnt even existed yet during the flood.
its a scientific fact that dark skin people are genetically dominant and have more melanin in their skin. Clearly they are the original creation of man. White skin (red skin) blue eyes, red & blonde hair is a recessive trait. which is why Africans have albino babies that have blonde hair and blue eyes.
Its a recessive trait, which means to RECEDE. which means to fall out or fall away or go backwards from what was ORIGINAL. whats original? the dark full melanin skin. Whites are pretty much the "male pattern baldness of the human race". theyre descent of Esau! just give it up. I have a few books that reveal that Esau is the forefather of the Roman Empire. Who ruled the roman empire? CAUCASIANS. they were originally greeks. Until a sect broke off and did there own thing and manifested the roman empire which obsorbed the greek and adopted their customs and languages. Same people, different ruling governing philosophies. Not much different but different nonetheless.
The book that reveals Esau is the forefather of Roman empire is a book called IMPERIAL ROME by TIME LIFE BOOKS. And a book called classic biblical baby names.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5 ... 3,200_.jpg
that book as well reveals Esau is the ancestor of romans which is the root of all caucasian tribes today.
after rome fell in the 4th century completely, they were ran out into the caucasus mountains of georgia russia and dwelled there poor and cavemen and women. Then came out and was subjects to the moors that ruled europe during the dark ages.
Youre in the room with an elephant boy..You have no idea what your dealing with..The Lord revealed to us ISRAELITES more about the caucasian nation then they know about themselves. We know who they are biblically. The nation of Esau/Edom. Your elite know this. but you been hoodwinked and bamboozled with your head so far up the corrupt satanic church systems ass that you cant understand this truth even it if it slapped you in the face and kicked you in the nuts.
Itll get you eventually..But the truth stands forever.
As for my people, the negroes Are not hamites from cush. The egyptians, babylonians, nimrod, the modern day africans that sold us into slavery are hamites.
heres a tip for you. It wasnt about color back then with God, all was dark skin nations by the time Abraham was chosen.
it just so happened that one particular dark skin man, Abraham had real faith in the God that created earth and flooded it. he sacrificed and served that God, with what he did know of him back then. God happened to choose this dark skin man out of the rest of the dark skins in the earth..And chose his seed isaac through sarah, and isaacs seed Jacob. Esau was born red, (albino) Jacob was dark skinned. Isaac was dark skinned Abraham was dark skinned. Esau is the beginning of the caucasian race. God created them different like they are for a reason that will all soon be revealed in these last days.
Caucasian ia not his original creation though, and neither are they his chosen people..He rejected Esays entire lineage, much like he did cains seed and destroyed them in the flood but spared adams seed through seth.
Notice how all races have a record of having dark skin people in their race. chinese, asians, arabs, japanese, Africans of course. The native americans, all Got dark skin people and light skin people now. but the dark skin people among them you can see that all civilization was dark skin at one point because of the dark skin gene being genetically dominant.
Caucasians are the only nation that dont have any record of dark skin people among them, there are no dark skin caucasians. Theyre different then every other nation.
my point is which im trying to drive home is that all of noah ham.shem.and japheth were dark skin..And if shem.was dark skin then that means today predominantly the israelites are a dark skin people. Yeah theres different shades of course because of mixing over the milliniums but predominantly they are dark skin. The negroes and native americans/hispanics are dark skin people and are the israelites.
jews are the negroes from the slave trade to the west. the tribes of Judah benjamin and levi.
And the natives are the 10 tribes that came out to the west after the assyrian captivity a few centuries before the greek empire started up. You read this in 2 esdras 13:40-45 the region they sailed to was a region where never mankind dwelt, took a year and a half to get there by travelling down the eurphrates around the east coast line of africa to south coast africa and out west to south america. which was original called what the bible calls ARSARETH.
Never mankind dwelt makes the 10 tribes of israel that sailed there, the NATIVES of the land.
aka Native americans.
as for the negroes. here you read this and you put 2 and 2 together and figure it out.
Zondervan’s Compact Bible Dictionary:
Ham – "The youngest son of Noah, born probably about 96 years before the Flood; and one of eight persons to live through the Flood. He became the progenitor of the dark races; not the Negroes, but the Egyptians, Ethiopians, Libyans and Canaanites."
not to mention we fit the curses written in dueteronony 28 and are the ONLY group of people that have EVER been scattered to the western end of the earth. no other race fits that curse but the negroes from the slave trade in the 1600s.
Deuteronomy 28:64 KJV
"And the Lord shall scatter you among all people (races), from the one end of the earth (the east) even unto the other (the west); and there you shall serve other gods, which neither you nor your fathers have known, even wood and stone."
now who else besides the negroes was scattered to the western end of earth and were made slaves and forced to serve a slave religion and false gods and customs (catholic/christianity)
no other race but the negroes think you very much. check mate and Ill gladly see you in our (negroes/hispanics) Israelites, kingdom to come as as my servant and faithful slave. thus says My God. (not yours)
Isaiah 14:1-2 KJV
"For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel (negroes/hispanics), and set them in their OWN land:
(OWN LAND: note: We dont live in our own land today. matter fact were the only people not dwelling in our homeland. Africa was a place of refuge after 70 ad, its the native hamites land, not ours. The negroes in the west belong to Jerusalem thank you very much, be jealous!)
"And the strangers (real gentiles) shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob (negroes/hispanics). And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess (ENSLAVE) them in the land of the Lord for servants (male workers) and handmaids: (Concubines/young woman/sex servants) and they shall take them captives, (slaves) whose captives (slaves) they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors."
we were whites slaves, African hamites slaves, arabs slaves, And so all of you shall be ours in jerusalem in our subjection. it aint about color, its about blood line.
to put it in perspective for you. There are israelites who have caucasian features but are of the bloodline of israel because of their fathers. In that day Caucasian looking israelites will be owning dark skin black hamite slaves. And also dark skin negroes (israelites) will own dark skin hamite slaves. As well as negroes and hispanics owning WHITE SLAVES.
It aint about color. it just so happens that predominantly Esau is the caucasain red skin race of people. And the israelites are predominantly dark skin people. God made us different on purpose. he knows what hes doing.
but I had to blast you when you made that brain dead statement negroes arent from ham, were from cush..Wtf? cush is from ham. Ham is the forefather of the african nations Egypt ethiopia lybia, ect. but NOT the negroes, we have nothing to do with cush or nimrod.
We serve the God of Israel. all you nations that serve modern day american and europe holidays like christmas and easter, and all of the pagan religions in the earth today have a root that goes back to the worship of king nimrod.
the whites worahip nimrod (the wicked bkack man of ham) on christmas which was an dark skin original custom in babylon that the roman empire adopted into catholicsim idolatry and sun god worship.
we serve Christ (the righteous black man of Shem, of israel, and king and savior and redeemer of my people, the negroes and hispanics, Israelites)
we dont fool with christmas, easter, none of the american holidays and customs. even the wedding ring custom is ancient roman paganism. no such scripture in the bible about a woman who is to be your subnect, an over priced diamond ring. Woman please.I can put a down payment on a house with the money for that pagan traditional ring.
we dont fool with pork, we keep the commandments in the faith of christ in hopes that he will save us from you crazy nations that are dumb as a rock and clearly dont need to be ruling Gods earth. the real kings will show you how its done in due time, servant.
you dumbass. lol if negroes are not from Ham, they canr be from cush! wtf are you smoking. Yes king nimrod was black. but heres a newsflash for you blind soul. ALL CIVILIZATION WAS DARK SKIN PRIOR TO AND AFTER THE FLOOD! Noah ham shem and japheth were all dark skin. how in the fucks sake can Ham be the forefather of a genetically dominant gene (dark skin) without him being dark skin as well? use your head.
You been super brainwashed. If Ham was black, His FATHER had to be black too! White people hadnt even existed yet during the flood.
its a scientific fact that dark skin people are genetically dominant and have more melanin in their skin. Clearly they are the original creation of man. White skin (red skin) blue eyes, red & blonde hair is a recessive trait. which is why Africans have albino babies that have blonde hair and blue eyes.
Its a recessive trait, which means to RECEDE. which means to fall out or fall away or go backwards from what was ORIGINAL. whats original? the dark full melanin skin. Whites are pretty much the "male pattern baldness of the human race". theyre descent of Esau! just give it up. I have a few books that reveal that Esau is the forefather of the Roman Empire. Who ruled the roman empire? CAUCASIANS. they were originally greeks. Until a sect broke off and did there own thing and manifested the roman empire which obsorbed the greek and adopted their customs and languages. Same people, different ruling governing philosophies. Not much different but different nonetheless.
The book that reveals Esau is the forefather of Roman empire is a book called IMPERIAL ROME by TIME LIFE BOOKS. And a book called classic biblical baby names.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5 ... 3,200_.jpg
that book as well reveals Esau is the ancestor of romans which is the root of all caucasian tribes today.
after rome fell in the 4th century completely, they were ran out into the caucasus mountains of georgia russia and dwelled there poor and cavemen and women. Then came out and was subjects to the moors that ruled europe during the dark ages.
Youre in the room with an elephant boy..You have no idea what your dealing with..The Lord revealed to us ISRAELITES more about the caucasian nation then they know about themselves. We know who they are biblically. The nation of Esau/Edom. Your elite know this. but you been hoodwinked and bamboozled with your head so far up the corrupt satanic church systems ass that you cant understand this truth even it if it slapped you in the face and kicked you in the nuts.
Itll get you eventually..But the truth stands forever.
As for my people, the negroes Are not hamites from cush. The egyptians, babylonians, nimrod, the modern day africans that sold us into slavery are hamites.
heres a tip for you. It wasnt about color back then with God, all was dark skin nations by the time Abraham was chosen.
it just so happened that one particular dark skin man, Abraham had real faith in the God that created earth and flooded it. he sacrificed and served that God, with what he did know of him back then. God happened to choose this dark skin man out of the rest of the dark skins in the earth..And chose his seed isaac through sarah, and isaacs seed Jacob. Esau was born red, (albino) Jacob was dark skinned. Isaac was dark skinned Abraham was dark skinned. Esau is the beginning of the caucasian race. God created them different like they are for a reason that will all soon be revealed in these last days.
Caucasian ia not his original creation though, and neither are they his chosen people..He rejected Esays entire lineage, much like he did cains seed and destroyed them in the flood but spared adams seed through seth.
Notice how all races have a record of having dark skin people in their race. chinese, asians, arabs, japanese, Africans of course. The native americans, all Got dark skin people and light skin people now. but the dark skin people among them you can see that all civilization was dark skin at one point because of the dark skin gene being genetically dominant.
Caucasians are the only nation that dont have any record of dark skin people among them, there are no dark skin caucasians. Theyre different then every other nation.
my point is which im trying to drive home is that all of noah ham.shem.and japheth were dark skin..And if shem.was dark skin then that means today predominantly the israelites are a dark skin people. Yeah theres different shades of course because of mixing over the milliniums but predominantly they are dark skin. The negroes and native americans/hispanics are dark skin people and are the israelites.
jews are the negroes from the slave trade to the west. the tribes of Judah benjamin and levi.
And the natives are the 10 tribes that came out to the west after the assyrian captivity a few centuries before the greek empire started up. You read this in 2 esdras 13:40-45 the region they sailed to was a region where never mankind dwelt, took a year and a half to get there by travelling down the eurphrates around the east coast line of africa to south coast africa and out west to south america. which was original called what the bible calls ARSARETH.
Never mankind dwelt makes the 10 tribes of israel that sailed there, the NATIVES of the land.
aka Native americans.
as for the negroes. here you read this and you put 2 and 2 together and figure it out.
Zondervan’s Compact Bible Dictionary:
Ham – "The youngest son of Noah, born probably about 96 years before the Flood; and one of eight persons to live through the Flood. He became the progenitor of the dark races; not the Negroes, but the Egyptians, Ethiopians, Libyans and Canaanites."
not to mention we fit the curses written in dueteronony 28 and are the ONLY group of people that have EVER been scattered to the western end of the earth. no other race fits that curse but the negroes from the slave trade in the 1600s.
Deuteronomy 28:64 KJV
"And the Lord shall scatter you among all people (races), from the one end of the earth (the east) even unto the other (the west); and there you shall serve other gods, which neither you nor your fathers have known, even wood and stone."
now who else besides the negroes was scattered to the western end of earth and were made slaves and forced to serve a slave religion and false gods and customs (catholic/christianity)
no other race but the negroes think you very much. check mate and Ill gladly see you in our (negroes/hispanics) Israelites, kingdom to come as as my servant and faithful slave. thus says My God. (not yours)
Isaiah 14:1-2 KJV
"For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel (negroes/hispanics), and set them in their OWN land:
(OWN LAND: note: We dont live in our own land today. matter fact were the only people not dwelling in our homeland. Africa was a place of refuge after 70 ad, its the native hamites land, not ours. The negroes in the west belong to Jerusalem thank you very much, be jealous!)
"And the strangers (real gentiles) shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob (negroes/hispanics). And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess (ENSLAVE) them in the land of the Lord for servants (male workers) and handmaids: (Concubines/young woman/sex servants) and they shall take them captives, (slaves) whose captives (slaves) they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors."
we were whites slaves, African hamites slaves, arabs slaves, And so all of you shall be ours in jerusalem in our subjection. it aint about color, its about blood line.
to put it in perspective for you. There are israelites who have caucasian features but are of the bloodline of israel because of their fathers. In that day Caucasian looking israelites will be owning dark skin black hamite slaves. And also dark skin negroes (israelites) will own dark skin hamite slaves. As well as negroes and hispanics owning WHITE SLAVES.
It aint about color. it just so happens that predominantly Esau is the caucasain red skin race of people. And the israelites are predominantly dark skin people. God made us different on purpose. he knows what hes doing.
but I had to blast you when you made that brain dead statement negroes arent from ham, were from cush..Wtf? cush is from ham. Ham is the forefather of the african nations Egypt ethiopia lybia, ect. but NOT the negroes, we have nothing to do with cush or nimrod.
We serve the God of Israel. all you nations that serve modern day american and europe holidays like christmas and easter, and all of the pagan religions in the earth today have a root that goes back to the worship of king nimrod.
the whites worahip nimrod (the wicked bkack man of ham) on christmas which was an dark skin original custom in babylon that the roman empire adopted into catholicsim idolatry and sun god worship.
we serve Christ (the righteous black man of Shem, of israel, and king and savior and redeemer of my people, the negroes and hispanics, Israelites)
we dont fool with christmas, easter, none of the american holidays and customs. even the wedding ring custom is ancient roman paganism. no such scripture in the bible about a woman who is to be your subnect, an over priced diamond ring. Woman please.I can put a down payment on a house with the money for that pagan traditional ring.
we dont fool with pork, we keep the commandments in the faith of christ in hopes that he will save us from you crazy nations that are dumb as a rock and clearly dont need to be ruling Gods earth. the real kings will show you how its done in due time, servant.
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Vanguard PCD
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Re: Did Lucifer fall in heaven or in the Garden of Eden?
Post #32[Replying to trumpet_guy]
Neither option.
Lucifer, found in the KJV of Isaiah 14:12 (but not modern translations), is not talking about Satan. That entire chapter refers to a fallen Babylonian king. The term itself is Latin, and refers to the planet Venus, i.e. the "morning star."
Neither option.
Lucifer, found in the KJV of Isaiah 14:12 (but not modern translations), is not talking about Satan. That entire chapter refers to a fallen Babylonian king. The term itself is Latin, and refers to the planet Venus, i.e. the "morning star."
God gave us the ability to reason...
Re: Did Lucifer fall in heaven or in the Garden of Eden?
Post #33Actually, the latin is an epitaph of the ancient pagan sun god, not Venus. Lucifer is equivalent to the Greek epitaph of Pheobus of Pheobus Apollo. Venus is associated with his twin sister who the Roman's called Diana Luciferah who was a combination of the Greek goddesses Artemis and Aphrodite rolled into a single goddess but worshiped under different stages of her life as maiden and then later mother/whore.Vanguard PCD wrote: [Replying to trumpet_guy]
Neither option.
Lucifer, found in the KJV of Isaiah 14:12 (but not modern translations), is not talking about Satan. That entire chapter refers to a fallen Babylonian king. The term itself is Latin, and refers to the planet Venus, i.e. the "morning star."
Isa 14 is a passage about a shameful king of Babel (the same Hebrew word as Babylon) but that shameful king was the pagan deity Molech of the Canaanites. Molech means 'shameful king'. He was a deity worshiped at Babel.
He is called 'ben Shachar', ie 'son of the Morning'. Shachar (Morning) or (Hadad -the thunderer- of the Syrians) was the name/title of another Canaanite deity. The 'shameful king', the sun god that is 'son of the Morning' is just another way of saying Apollo, son of Zeus and we know Apollyon (an alternate spelling of Apollo) is 'king of the pit' according to Revelation while the ancient pagan sun god is equated as the enemy of Yahweh all over the old testament. BTW, Apollo means 'the destroyer' in Greek. He was a destroyer by insect plague. The Philistines called him 'Baalzebub', ie 'lord of insects/flies' because he was a destroyer by insect plague.
So, I have to disagree with your statement. Who we know of as Satan/Lucifer does have a title of 'shameful king' at Babel. Sun god worship originated at Babel. I do agree that this was not the same individual as the serpent in Eden. HaSatan doesn't appear in scripture until the book of Job which is post tower of Babel. The serpent in the garden was bound with all the other ben Elohyim that sinned before the flood and have been in prison since the time of the flood according to Jude and 2 Peter 2.
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ttruscott
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Post #34
I cannot agree. Snakes and serpents are both used as symbols for the dragon, Satan. Snakes may slide around on their bellies but they do not eat dust. There is nothing to connect this serpent with our garden variety snake except myth.OnceConvinced wrote:
...
The talking snake was clearly a talking snake, which is why God cursed snakes to slide around on their bellies. I can only presume that before hand they had legs. At least in this story.
...
Peace, Ted
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
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Hezekiah_Holbrooke
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Re: Did Lucifer fall in heaven or in the Garden of Eden?
Post #35[Replying to post 1 by trumpet_guy]
Alas, that is one we can ponder but will probably never know for certain until we receive our spiritual bodies. I have certainly heard that Lucifer fell in the garden. I have also heard that he fell before the garden. I have also heard and is the view I take myself that he has fallen somewhat but continues to have access to the throne of God where he accuses and rails against us. I believe myself that Satan will finally be kicked completely out of Heaven in the latter days as is spoken of in the Book of Revelation.
Adam lost his opportunity to be the god of this world therefore Satan retains his godship over this world at present.
Alas, that is one we can ponder but will probably never know for certain until we receive our spiritual bodies. I have certainly heard that Lucifer fell in the garden. I have also heard that he fell before the garden. I have also heard and is the view I take myself that he has fallen somewhat but continues to have access to the throne of God where he accuses and rails against us. I believe myself that Satan will finally be kicked completely out of Heaven in the latter days as is spoken of in the Book of Revelation.
Adam lost his opportunity to be the god of this world therefore Satan retains his godship over this world at present.
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Nickman
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Re: Did Lucifer fall in heaven or in the Garden of Eden?
Post #36Since the Lucifer in Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 are most certainly men, and Kings of Tyre and Babylon, the whole Lucifer as the serpent makes no sense.trumpet_guy wrote: Did Lucifer fall in heaven or in the Garden of Eden?
I was comparing the passages used to describe Lucifer's fall and Genesis 1-3 and I found many similarities between the two, and currently believe Lucifer's fall occurred in the Garden of Eden.
I have also looked at a few possible problems such as one addressed by Don Stewart.
"The description given here could hardly refer to the earthly Garden of Eden. In the Garden of Eden, there is no reference to gold or precious stones. "
However this is not true.
Genesis 2:12-14
10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
Just curious on other people's thoughts.
Isaiah 14:4 that you will take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say:
12 “How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
16 “Those who see you will gaze at you,
And consider you, saying:
‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms,
17 Who made the world as a wilderness
And destroyed its cities,
18 “All the kings of the nations,
All of them, sleep in glory,
Everyone in his own house;
20 You will not be joined with them in burial,
Because you have destroyed your land
And slain your people.
Ezekiel 28 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:
Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
12 “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him:
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
So what we have is a bad interpretation of several verses and chapters that has caused many a sermon to be about something that is incorrect. Also, since Eden the Garden of God refers to the land between the Tigris and Euphrates (Mesopotamia) it is no wonder why people try to make these out to be the serpent in the garden instead of a person who had been to that land. A land also in the Fertile Crescent and well known to anyone from that region for its lushness and biodiversity.
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Nickman
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Post #37
This interpretation is incorrect and is a quote mine. If the entire chapter of Isaiah 14 is read then anyone can understand who and what is being talked about. Lucifer or "shining one" in Isaiah is the King of Babylon, a flesh and blood human.LES wrote: Satan was cast out of heaven before the earth was created. See Isaiah 14:12. Also see https://www.lds.org/topics/satan?lang=eng for more information from a Latter-Day Saint (Mormon) viewpoint.
3 It shall come to pass in the day the Lord gives you rest from your sorrow, and from your fear and the hard bondage in which you were made to serve, 4 that you will take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say:
Everything following is directed toward the King of Babylon, not a made up Satan character. It is a condemnation of this king's oppressive and tyrannical rule. See my previous post for more clarification, or read the whole chapter yourself.
