What Christianity means to me.

[Sarek]

Ok so God creates all, Man and Woman included.

Man and Woman sin by removing a fruit from a tree.

Both willing to sin, and they did sin.

Old Testament is some sort of precursor/preparation for Christ to undo the damage that man and woman choose to engage in.

So what does God have to do? God must reverse what we put into motion.

So now by reason God needs a sinless women to agree to having her fruit put back on the Tree. This is why Mary is sinless before giving birth to Jesus until she watches him die on the cross. She is not a God or part of God but sinless she is anyhow. She was in sin while in her mothers stomach but somewhere somehow through forgiveness and or grace she became sinless.

So Jesus replaces the taken fruit and women allows it to happen undoing what eve allowed to happen.

So you see you have creation, sin, and the undoing of that which is evil from God himself with a women who freely chooses to accept the burden of knowing she will watch her son Die a horrible death.

Be careful when you speak ill of Mary.

God Bless you all.

[puddleglum]

Be careful when you speak ill of Mary.

Buy you should also be careful not to speak too highly of her.

As he said these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!� But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!�
(Luke 11:27-28 ESV)

Mary was an obedient servant of God but the Bible never says she was sinless. Jesus was sinless because he was conceived by the Holy Spirit rather than by a human father. Only the blood of a sinless sacrifice could atone for sin.

And Mary said,
“My soul magnifies the Lord,
and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior."
(Luke 1:46-47 ESV)

Here Mary acknowledges her need of a savior. Jesus atoned for her sins as well as ours.

[Sarek]

[Replying to post 2 by theophilus40]

How can a sinless person grow in a sinner? Mary was a sinner when she was in her mothers stomach, after birth God removed sin from her by filling her with faith and grace. Thats why she's called blessed.

[Elijah John]

Maybe Jesus himself was not perfect, but was deified by John and Paul.

And what we know as Christianity today is based more on the writings of those two disciples than Matthew, Mark, Luke, or James,

And maybe, just maybe, the deification process is also taken place with Mary? We may be witnessing what happened with Jesus centuries ago, with Mary.

It took until the 1950's until the RCC declared her to be immaculately conceived. Why so long if it were the truth?

It is a human inclination to deify it's heroes.

Just because I do not believe Jesus was perfect, (or Mary for that matter) does not mean I do not think they were Godly people, I do, both of them. And in Jesus case, a prophet.

Evidence for Jesus imperfection can be found in the fact that subjected himself to John's baptism, which was a baptism of repentance.

If Jesus was already perfect and sinless, why would he need to repent?

[puddleglum]

Evidence for Jesus imperfection can be found in the fact that subjected himself to John's baptism, which was a baptism of repentance.

Are you sure of that? Look at what Jesus and John said about his baptism.

Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. John would have prevented him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?�

But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.� Then he consented.
(Matthew 3:13-15 ESV)

This clearly shows his motivation for being baptized wasn't the same as that of the others John baptized.

If Jesus wasn't sinless how could his death atone for our sins? He would have had sins of his own to pay for.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 5 by theophilus40]

How is being baptized in the Jordan river part of the practice of JEWISH righteousness?

John was offering a radical, non-Temple way to forgiveness. So Jesus could not have been doing this for the purpose of "fullfilling all righteousness" or keeping up appearances. John's was a baptism of repentance. If Jesus was perfect, why repent?

That's part of my point, Jesus was NOT perfect, and did not need to be sacrificed in the first place. He died a martrys death, as the result of being persecuted for righteousness sake. The Father does not need blood in order to atone or forgive. Never did. I believe the blood atonement Temple system was a Pagan holdover which the Jews eventually outgrew, with the help of the prophets.

Sure, there are some verses in the Bible that indicate blood sacrifice was used, and Paul thinks so. But that is Paul' theological interpretation of the meaning of Jesus death.

The OT prophets indicate that God prefers repentance, thanks and praise, and mercy rather than blood sacrifice..in many places. Micah, 6.6 for example.

Jesus himself says that God prefers "mercy and not sacrifice" and in the Lord's prayer, says NOTHING about blood sacrifice in order to obtain forgiveness, just asking for it and being willing to forgive others.

The parable of the prodigal son, no sacrifice required, just turning back the Father.

I could go on...

[puddleglum]

The Father does not need blood in order to atone or forgive. Never did.

Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
(Hebrews 9:22 ESV)

I believe the blood atonement Temple system was a Pagan holdover which the Jews eventually outgrew, with the help of the prophets.

The Temple sacrifices were intended to be a preview of how Jesus would pay for our sins with his blood.

Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world.

But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
(Hebrews 9:23-26 ESV)

Since Jesus has paid for our sins the sacrifices were already needed.

The OT prophets indicate that God prefers repentance, thanks and praise, and mercy rather than blood sacrifice..in many places. Micah, 6.6 for example.

God does prefer that we obey him and if we obeyed completely there would be no sin and therefore no need for sacrifices to atone for sin. Unfortunately no one lives up to what God requires; therefore we are all guilty of sins that need to be atoned for.

Jesus himself says that God prefers "mercy and not sacrifice" and in the Lord's prayer, says NOTHING about blood sacrifice in order to obtain forgiveness, just asking for it and being willing to forgive others.

The Lord's prayer is intended for those who have already been forgiven because of the sacrifice of Jesus. Now there is no need for any more sacrifices.

The parable of the prodigal son, no sacrifice required, just turning back the Father.

The purpose of the parable is simply to show that God is willing to receive any sinner who repents. It doesn't go into any detail about what is involved. But what about this statement?

And bring the fattened calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate.
(Luke 15:23 ESV)

That would require the shedding of blood.

[fred barclay]

[Replying to post 3 by Sarek]

I'd agree with most of your post except the bit about Mary--which I agree with theophilus40 on. Where does the Bible say that she was sinless or that sin was removed in the way you said?
And perhaps if mercy and obedience were followed in the first place sacrifices wouldn't be needed; since sin wouldn't occur?
And the Bible indicates that sacrifices will occur again in the Millennium--under God's presence on Earth. If they were pagan origin He would not require them.