melikio wrote:
I think that many Christians need to reconsider what it is that THEY must do, as it relates to homosexuality and homosexuals.
That is what I reject the strongest to.
Homosexuals are the ones demanding Christians change. Homosexuals have no support from the Bible for demanding Christians change. That is what I call homosexualization. The Gay Agenda and its political agenda is shown for what it is. Intolerant.
Gays say that homosexuality has been with us for as long as recorded history. It has been rejected by society after society after society.
Homosexual culture and lifestyle is too attached to perversion, excess, cruelty and deviance. Normal, decent people find the hedonist repugnant.
I want it made clear that "tolerance" does not mean acceptance. No amount of 2006 political correctness; forcing a Christian to submit to homosexualization is going to change human nature. Homosexuality IS an aberration. Nothing can change that. A wall of legal protection, not unlike Israel versus Hezbollah; needs to be put up to protect Christians from this incredible attack being waged day in and day out against them by secularists and gays and lesbians.
Micatal wrote:
Again, I know I am suggesting a big change in thinking for those with a traditional viewpoint on homosexuality.
No you are not. This same-gender sex acts thing has come up again and again and again. In fact it is written in the Bible itself for the same reasons. Homosexuality is not compatible to a healthy congregagtion. There is no way to force homosexualization onto the 2006 (or beyond) Church.
However, I am absolutely not suggesting 'nothing is wrong' anymore.
Unfortunately you are. If two men can call themselves a husband and a wife, it's over. Morality is dead. The history of homosexuals is not rosy.
Yes, when 'moral boundaries' change it always creates concern and we should not undertake these changes lightly (I think I mistyped and wrote 'rightly' a few posts back).
This is never going to happen with gay sex male or female. They will never win a forced acceptance and they will never win any other form of acceptance in healthy Churches. That is why we see the Gay Agenda the way it is. A secular political-power organization.
But such changes in BIblical interpretation have been made successfully in the past without the total dissolution of all moral boundaries.
And since Biblical scribe put ink on recording surface, same-gender sex acts have been not apporved. You cannot equate anal sex to slavery in any other way than a slave being raped by a same-gender perpetrator. Science also does not lend support for using the body orifices for things they were not designed for. This isn't just a Biblical issue for Christians.
I am suggesting what I think is a reasonable change that does not effect the central tenets of Christianity anymore than the change in outlook from the earth-centered to sun-centered world-view, the acceptance of Black's and women as 'equal human beings', the allowance that OT laws are not required of Christians, etc.
The sun still "rises" in the west. I just heard that on the news yesterday. Marriage cannot be altered to make gays and lesbians feel thay have won some battle over decent and beautiful Christians.
1John wrote:
God and His prohets always warn of the problems associated with joining in with the detestable practices of the non-believers.
micatala wrote:
What the Israelites found detestable, Jesus did not. What is detestable changes over time. What does not change for Christians is that God expects us to love Him, and to love each other (believers and non-believers alike, even our enemies).
Jesus detailed marriage in no uncertain way. What anyone is trying to do with same-sex marriage, they will have to do away from Christians and their Churches.
1John wrote:
Which of course makes homosexuals our enemies (if we are to love our enemies). Why would you want to force these people into our Churches? I cannot understand your motives?
Micatal wrote:
I know some homosexuals are anti-Christian. I am not sure why those that are believers need to be considered enemies.
Homosexuals preaching this "different Gospel" are no different than Mormons or Scientologists. Christians see both preaching a different and opposing Gospel. Homosexuals are definately altering Biblical textst from OT to Revelation.
At any rate, I am not trying to 'force' them in, I am simply hoping that Christians in general come to accept homosexuality as not being sinful.
Same-gender sex acts are sinful. Where is there any other declaration for them in either the Old Testament OR the New Testament? People that refuse to repent must not even be allowed in a Church, let alone let in and then asked to leave. Read what John wrote about in his three little epistles.
My motives are born out of a conviction that this is an unnecessarily divisive and painful issue for the church, and that homosexuals are often treated unfairly, hatefully, and are marginalized for no real good reason.
And I have detailed in grueling, graphic and truthful examples, why there are extremely good reasons for opposing, disapproving and dissenting of homosexualization (The Gay Agenda) forced on Christians. I pray that you preach to these people that they repent like you and I do.
In the current situation, I believe the church is losing by excluding this entire group of people, and many who could be saved and come into the church are now not because they perceive, rightly or wrongly, that Christians hate them.
"Hate," is an inaccurate word. "Distrust" and "realize" are better words. Homosexuals have proven beyond doubt that there mesage is to recruit youth into a lifestyle, culture and community of homosexuality. No different than Mormons cruising for their converts amongst Christians. Any God-fearing Christian must oppose homosexualization of children into "Queer" culture. It goes no further than that. No hate, homophobia or bigotry. Just cold hard facts gathered from Gay and Lesbian outreach communications, organizations and actions.
They think, and I think with some justification, that many Christians are asking homosexuals to carry a burden that they themselves are not willing to carry.
ANYONE, Christian-labeled or not, that wants to promote and encourage anyone to commit sin has got to be defined for what they are. Non members.
They perceive, rightly or wrongly, that many CHristians are not acting in love, but perhaps more out of fear, or pride in their own righteousness. Mel has often spoken eloquently of this dynamic.
Mel, presents "poor pitiful me." That does not cut it in a congregation seeking a healthy body of believers, and is no where taught as an excuse for wrong actions to go unchallenged. Gays and Lesbians can think whatever they want to about Christians in their secular political lobbies, but Christians are not the bad guys demanding to alter family and marriage and morality.
Is some of this criticism of Christians unfair? Perhaps.
Who cares. The type of people that beat Jesus and executed Him were lascivious licentious totalitarian hedonists. Jesus told us in no uncertain terms that these kinds of people would speak all manner of evil about us. AND, would think it is good to do so and to also go as far as persecuting us AS the bad guys.
Polycarp comes to my mind everytime I type on the issue of Gay political power. So what that these kinds of people hate us? No way are they coming into our congregtions and changing us. Let their vengeance be meted out to people that do not want to share their ideas about God. No different than the Romans and Christians in the formation of the body of believers. Trust me when I say that I do not believe that liberal/progressive/gays/lesbians, will move to wipe us out. They need us far more than we need them. We work and pay taxes in far larger numbers than the "Queer Community." Our culture is far more beneficial for social order and overall health. I have done away with my persecution views.
As with many issues, those on opposing sides often have a hard time understanding or being sympathetic to their opponents, and I think it is true that some in the homosexual community . . .
Stop right there. The community and culture presented "by" homosexuals has nothing in common with the Christian community. It all starts and ends there.
. . . that some in the homosexual community are not sympathetic to the viewpoint or feelings of Christians . . .
All we are supposed to do "as Christians" is to shake off our shoes and go on to those that will listen and repent. Notice, that that is considered a crime "in" Queer Culture and Community.
. . . who believe they are doing nothing more than trying to follow their faith and convictions in good conscience.
Good conscience is the key. I want homosexuals on the opposing side, as they will not agree with immutable truths on
family and marriage, only because they see Christians as the bad guys. I MUST show love to my brothers and sisters in Christ and to show my love FOR THEM. The opposition I must love as enemies.
Those two things "family and marriage" and the resulting situation for children, will keep such a line of demarcation between the Queer Community and its Culture, and Christians and how they believe and live their lives. I see only an odd and unhelathy pseudo-mimicking of Christian life and lifestyle in this new political morality being trumpeted by the Gay Agenda. Sorry, Rosie O'Donnel's kids not understanding what the issue "is," is just as alarming for why Rosie is using kids to further the Gay Agenda.
Love the sinner hate the sin is not allowed in the Queer Culture. Even you have presented that very fact. "They" have nothing to repent of. Micatala, you agree with them on that. I, and millions of other Christians, can not fellowship with those kinds of people! Mormons think they have no need of repenting either. Their Jesus (?) . . . oh nevermind.
If I could accomplish nothing more than persuade a few people to gain a better understanding and sympathy for the position and situation of homosexuals, then I will consider that a success.
You have succeeded with me. I have weighed the evidence you presented and grew further away from desiring to see Queer Culture forced onto Christians. I don't know how to gain knowledge of their actions because I get so many pop ups when trying. And I am concerned with what I am putting on my computer. You get only porno sites when you try to get internet info on gay sex. I try to examine "it" (the gay and lesbian position) more closely and I get nauseated from the effort.
I also have great sympathy for those living in homosexuality but, on that, in no different way than Mormons and Muslims. Wrong theology. Wrong God.
I will be leaving this place for a little while.
I just wanted to be clear on the issue. Once again. There is a line drawn that should not be blurred. (My main point.)
I'll visit
this topic a few more times (until 8/2) for any rebuttals necessary.
All I can say is good luck and I hope you and yours live a long and healthy life.