Melikio, it is so unfair the way you debate.
That is your perception, and I do the same thing you believe you need to do, say what I believe needs to be said, when I need to say it. I'm not being
unfair toward you or anyone else, because you get to say exactly what you believe needs to be said (although you do repeat what seems like a bunch of near-insane ideas to me).
You go for the emotiuonal "poor pitiful me" aspect every time.
What I have been through as a homosexual person (terrible things, because of people who seek to make life miserable for gay people). Now, if you don't think that has in large part helped to shape my view of Christianity and religion, then yo haven't listened to a damned thing most people here have said to you. It looks like "poor pitiful me", because that is a reflection of the LACK of compassion in your religious view of things. I'm telling you that a HUMAN being (not some imaginary "demon") is on the receiving end of much of the crap you dish out, and you are so obsessed with your own view, that you can't even process it. It seems like something that you can't fathom any other way, but to call it "poor pitiful me". You don't have a clue, and that's all that tells me in the most practical way. BTW, enough people (and I myself) have shown that the Bible doesn't necessarily support your LACK of real compassion for homosexual people; you actually contribute to the very problems you rail against. (Think about it.)
I have many personal experiences with homosexuals that have me coming to my conclusions as well. I don't get the rousing social support you do for my personal feelings But, then again, I have not desire to join up with anti-Christrians.
I've found that many (certainly not all) "Christians" are clueless and cruel. Should I SIDE with people like that?
If "they" see that as an insult, they need to take that up with Christ Jesus. I am taking His advice. Not theirs.
Doesn't seem like "Jesus" is the source of the hateful things you relate so often to me. If Jesus is like that really (I doubt it), no wonder people do reject Him so. I don't think you are reflecting Jesus in any significant way, 1John, and the Bible backs me on that (as I interpret it).
Have you noticed that I have rarely (I think once) responded to Suzanne?
I'm not talking about that poster here.
Give me some credit sometime will you Mel?
No.
Scrutiny is what your words deserve
period.
I do not preach or yell. I just present my side of the issue and protect Christians from the insidouos attacks by those aimed to harm them and their children.
IMV, you preach "hatred", and fail to do most of what you claim above.
You join in on the feast of denigration directed at me by these anti-Christians here.
Many of the "anti-Christians" aren't lying and attempting to bend reality to their wills; you often do that, and it even seems desperate.
I reject teaching children to embrace becoming homosexuals.
I do not promote anything like that. I reject trying to teach homosexual-teen that they must accept the crap thrown at them, the dehumanizing memes directed at them by many of the religious and the hateful. They need to learn to fight back, in the most civil and effective ways they can.
My message has not changed.
So what; it's wrong NOW and always has been. Haven't you noticed many people telling you that?
I reject the altering of the Bible by caveat and by editing that is undertaken by liberals and progressives (et al) to delude and to trick innocent and beautiful people that desire to repent and leave a life of sin as best they can.
Yada, yada, yada. This is not the real problem here. A major portion of the issue involves the very type of intransigence represented in the quote directly above. (Typically referred to as, "closed mindedness"; if that's your goal, then SO BE IT; but it's not mine.)
I do not believe that liberals and progressives are doing what they do out of goodness. I believe that Satan is far too real in their fruits.
Satan? You just can't hear
yourself, can you? Give everyone a break, 1John... it is overdue.
And I hav never lied.
Self-delusion and pride, wrapped into one single statement; very efficient.
I do not alter facts to make the hedonist feel as though I am their friend.
No, you alter facts and distort reality to promote some special agenda, that I intend to stay as far away from as I can.
There is so much to reject of the Gay Culture as to make it completely seperated from what Christians should embrace.
What's the "Gay Culture"? If it's what I think it is, then you are still wrong; Jesus, by his very actions did NOT reject anyone (John 3:16), but YOU DO (another primary reason I don't trust most of anything you say here).
They do not demand tolerance Melikio.
There are many, promoting tolerance; and it's "common" knowledge. That you cannot accept any form of toleration of homosexuality or homosexuals, is a burden that you must bear peacefully, as many others do in this world. If you think that the universal 1John BEATDOWN of
homosexuals is just over the horizon, you are really fooling yourself.
They demand full and utter surrender to everything homosexual.
I just talked to a gay person last night, and many others in my life; where is the "demand" you claim?
No way can a Christian teach a child to embrace a family and a marriage other than male-female, husband (male) and wife (female).
Teaching "toleration" of sinners (treating them as real human beings), isn't far fetched, nor is it necessary to teach anything pro-homosexual to accomplish the same.
The Gay Culture and Community opposes that with every cell in its members' bodies. You cannot or should not be denying that.
IMV, YOU should stop promoting untruth; what you say cannot be "
Christian" either.
You are the one denying immutable facts.
EARTH to 1John...EARTH to 1John... come in please? (Sheesh!)
You get all emotional to not have to deal with reality. That should not enetr a debate but you use it as a tactic for supporting your opinions time and time and time again.
Again, you simply misinterpret what I've been getting at. I expect that, and cannot do anything more about it.
What about me Mel? What about my emotional health? What about the gay men that kept coming after me when I was inexperienced about sexuality?
The "Bible" doesn't condone or promote that either (as far as I can tell). Have I ever claim that it does? (No, I haven't.)
You gays have it made. No matter what stance a non-homosexual takes, they can be painted negatively. It's %#@#$%* creepy. The Fox is demanding to rule all of the chickens.
More cluelessness and cruelty, wrapped into a misguided plea. (I doubt I'm THAT
emotional, most of the time.)
These homosexuals want to teach my children and everyone else's that if a child has some kind of strange feelings on sexual matters, Mel, that these children are gay or lesbian.
John, what have you been reading and allowing to infiltrate your mind? That is some extreme stuff to say, and just seems neurotic to me; it's NOT REAL; can't you see that. You are expressing some radical view, that I've heard NO homosexuals I've known express. Why are you seemingly STUCK in the "extreme" view of things??!! (That, more than anything is a reason to RUN AWAY from you and what you say. I find
THAT "creepy".)
Anyone that questions these indoctrinators are quickly silenced by Gay laws. I've never seen anything like it outside of a communist dictatorship. I am not scared Mel, oh no. That would mean I am homophobic and that all of the Queer pride parades are all in my mind. Gay psychologists have meds for me to take.
Homophobia is a real/established concept; read about it... it's not fully described as merely being "
fear". (Get reasonably-educated, please.)
You ahve never once disproved my evidence. You just go "poor pitiful me" whenever you must deal with facts.
I have; and you display a distinct inability to properly fathom that I have. Sorry, can't change that.
Is that going to work on judgment day?
That God can see/know ALL things, give me more hope than you can imagine. Your views certainly don't remind me of "God".
From Biblical theology where do we get to blame God for our sins?
It is real/normal for people to direct blame at God; in many cases, why WOULDN'T they? It may not be "right", but it is still human. It's not YOUR place to "direct" HEARTS where yout perceive or THINK they should go. It's called "compassion", 1John. God can handle things, even millions of pissed-off believers and un-believers; let HIM do what ONLY HE can do, and stop trying to stand in
His place; you CAN get in the way.
Adam tried that he he was dealt with rather harshly.
I don't know what "Adam" was thinking; you assume that you do or merely believe what you've interpreted from the Bible. Whatever it was, likely wasn't as simple as you are making to out to be. It was a BIG DEAL.
Too bad for Eve, that she was coupled to such an egotist. But men have changed not one bit from Adam Mel.
People have always been "human". Let's go from there.
And Mel. you would be a liar "if" you assert that I have made any statements that anyone is forced to follow my Biblical exegesis.
So, you cannot find anywhere in the history of mankind, that religion has been FORCED upon human beings? You don't see that that happening today?
I have time and again asserted that anyone should start their own religion if they do not want to follow the Bible's clear and immutable teachings on marriage and family.And of course on the non-condoning of same-gender sex acts.
This is merely the same meaningless assertion you are in the habit of relating; it has already been addressed (many times before).
None of your emotional please or mine, can change what is and what isn't in the Bible. Why do you even want to join up with anti-Christians for advice and support? Think about that?
1John, you really need to get over yourself. That is my plea to you. You think you have THE biblical interpretation to beat them ALL, don't you.
Here, we have a "secondary" reason why I don't do anything but scrutinize your words.
I must show my love for them by protecting them from this insiduos secular relativism aimed at eliminating them from earth. Yes, I realize that liberals and progressives will fail, ultimately, but I am condemned by my silence when watching my fellow Christians attacked and doing nothing.
Love can handle what you are worried about; even though I consider your overall view of those concerns to be radical and extreme.
You: That is what I call homosexualization.
Me: It's more like the most "nebulous-strawman" I've ever encountered in an argument or discussion. What?! Do you believe or think that God actually approves of your every thought on this?
I am seeking God's thoughts on this subject Melikio. Your pitiful attempts to label me the bad guy fails upon examination. This homosexualization CAN not be hiddn any longer. I welcome the light Melikio. Jesus said every hidden thing will be proclaimed. I do not hide my actions behind accusations of others wrongdoings, I shine the same light on me as them.
To ME, you are a bad guy (in so far as what you often mean by your words). And what you say is "wrongdoings", is what most of this discussion or debate is about. YOU want to call and label certain things as wrong, in some way that you choose, rather than that which might actually be the will of God. You can't seem to fathom most of what's been said to you, but that's ok; I'm not thinking that I can or must change you one iota.
I just want to be sure to share a perspective that you either cannot or will not give (for whatever reason/s).
...but my words testify that I am presenting Biblical truth without an agenda driving any ulterior motives.
No, they don't. But if you believe they do, I really can't change that.
Your tears do not change what you must do when you rise. Mine either. If you want to debate on emotionalism, Melikio, I can face that tactic point for point as well.
If you believe that the "human" factor (which you hardly have pinned down with full-logic and facts) is something you can minimize or ignore, I can remind you that you aren't ALL THAT (scientifically, theologically or socially). You are sharing your opinions here, and although many of them may be formulated from the Bible (as you often claim), they are STILL
OPINIONS. Welcome to the
FORUM, 1John.
Still the homosexualization of society will not like me there either.
Does the Bible cover this "homosexualization" you are so obsessed with?
What is it (really) anyway?
And before we embrace the whole (very right-wing) concept of "homosexualization", let's consider again the concepts surrounding what "normal" is/isn't:
http://www.gay.com/news/roundups/packag ... ernum=1194
...Gays and Lesbians have no right to label sensible people as the bad guys.
Sensible is ok, but that doesn't mean that sensible people cannot be the bad guys.
Marriage and family IS a man and a woman raising their own children.
That is the definition YOU accept; what you believe is right can't be debated. No one is going to force you to change your view; but rest assured that not everyone agree with you.
It always has been and it always will be, BUT it is the LGBT Community and Culture that will not accept that. Aryan's and communists demand to run things too as the sole voice on every subject. Sensible people oppose them too.
Some families will be in a form other than what you approve; that is reality.
I said previously: And if you expect homosexuals to allow themselves to be dehumanized, and take it smiling, you are being unrealistic and/or delusional.
No matter how you view
dehumanization 1John, there is a real "limit" morally to what you and others can do to homosexual people, before the effects cause reciprocity or an actual act of God to balance things. You don't have to agree that such "dehumanization" actually takes place, for the effects to be as real as that keyboard in front of you.
And homosexual people will not just
ignore the negatives thrown at them; they aren't sub-human.
As far as human sexuality goes, it's not as well-defined as you would like, is it? You cannot accept that what it is, doesn't fit perfectly inside of your "biblical" view of what that is. And that's another thing that I can't change for you; there are not perfect answers to any of this, and the extremists who propose that there is, are living inside of a fantasy (in their own minds).
You don't have the solutuions to the
alleged discrepancies you point out, merely your own views, opinions and faith (just as many others do). Whatever God has said or may have said, you and others who believe are only charged with living what you believe; you will likely never accomplish molding the minds of all others to your own memes. Even if you manage to accomplish some facsimilie of the same, it won't be forever.
If my point is not valid Melikio, then where is same-sex marriage "today." It is just now being embraced by the godless communities and fringe liberal religious groups of modern day societies Mel.
Your point has some valid "
concerns" perhaps included within it, but the state of "gay marriage legally" isn't addressing all that needs to be.
What many are doing to homosexuals (especially in the name of God), really isn't promoted or condoned in the Bible; what this topic is really about.
The moderators of this place have eliminated my use of graphic facts Melikio.
LOL! I have seen you abuse "facts", I don't even know what the hell you are trying to say.
You know very well that STD's are a major problem in the Gay Community. What, isn't it now 30% of Afican America males "in America" are dying from AIDS? How the hell is that still happeing after the AIDS ravaged 80's Melikio? Because of hedonism and sexual promiscuity. You cannot hide all of the facts Mel.
1John, you should start a thread about disease, and its correlation to hedonism and sexual promiscuity; neither of which are exclusive to homosexual people.
Homosexuals need to first understand that normal people will not be able to see things as they do.
What's really "normal"? Your definitions are something I would
never trust. But most reasonable people realize that while homosexuality exists, it doesn't have to be necessarily approved or advocated for. Where I draw the line, is where many self-righteous people decide to AFFECT homosexuals; that is fair game to debate or oppose politically.
No matter what the debate aims at, it seems that Gays and Lesbians are as unwilling as Islamic fundamentalists to deal with sensible people being unable to grasp their belief systems.
Prove it; especially as it applies to ALL "Gays and Lesbians". You stack on more and more reasons, why people shouldn't regard the true
meaning of things you say.
We are left with driving them out of decent societal interactions.
And you do not inject "hatred" into your "message"? See yourself, fix what THAT is, then move on in God's grace. Otherwise, YOU are a part of the problem.
When is the LGBT Community going to stop their sick sexual parades?
The above it STUPID! You are just stereotyping, and it's really reprehensible to imply the things you do.
Masking sodomy behind gay families ain't fooling anyone with even a remote understanding and experience with sexuality.
And you aren't doing such a good job of masking hatred either; isn't it obvious to you, that's what you are spreading?
LGBT Culture will rise only to the level of another odd group of people mingling with a larger and apathetic populace. If they do not tone down their rhetoric, they will be voted out of legislative bodies without doubt.
So you say. And I see you don't really know what you are talking about; the gays and lesbians which exist, really aren't "counted" in the way you seem to think. Get a clue, 1John.
Average people do not see a lesbian or a gay guy, they see a person that does certain sexual things with others. That is reality, that Gays and Lesbians seem unwilling to accept.
1John, What is an "average" person? And you are wrong about what others see; I know you'd like to think that's what they see, but not ALL people who are heterosexual are as closed-minded as the views you embrace.
Yeah, yeah, you like sex with same-gendered people.
Ok.
Now go away.
Go where?
Why do we need to know about the sexual tastes of another person anyway?
I seem to recall that so many Christians and heterosexuals are so obsessed with "homosexuality", that they will pry into any/every cornet to find out what someone's sexual-orientation is. I've experience THAT so many times, I can't even count them. Egotistical JERKS, whose miniscule manhood is "threatened" by the mere existence or presence of a homosexual. Yeah, that's "homophobia", and it's as real as anything else I've seen from misguided Christians and anti-gay hate-mongers.
The issue is settled with the religious community.
No, it isn't. (Realism, please.)
It is settled with the hedonists (they don't give a damn), so why the incessant need to homosexulaize everyone?
Hateful stereotyping, at its most obvious.
Recruitment? Trolling? My personal feelings say yes.
Ok.
My "poor pitiful" experiences lead me to believe that that is the case. Why can't gays and lesbians just leave me and my frinds and family alone?
Where are they going to go? Earth seems to be the only place they have to live. What do you suggest?
I looked at all the angles and evidences (and still will continue) and came to the conclusion that it is the liberals and the progressives (which includes LGBT bigtime!) and found that they are the bad guys.
YOU and none else, has seen, examined and comprehended all angles; the person who has done that is God Himself. Get real.
Not people seeking to return to a pure and moral life. The Bible also supports my evidence and conclusions.
It also supports the conclusions of many you disagree with. The argument becomes fruitless, ultimately. It's to a point where only God's providence will prevail, or even make sense at all. THe "Bible" isn't as clear as you say, especially when examined outside of the tight circle you pull your interpretations from. And just about anyone can hold that book up, and fashion an agenda from it.
It has never been my goal to convert people to/from homosexuality. And using the Bible, I CAN pursue AND support an agenda which says:
People should be free to believe and apply faith as they see fit; but that real limitations apply, as it relates to the effects of actions commited upon others.
Now, if you and others who are apt to put "religion" above people can't regard that, then no one is going to "...
leave you alone...", or merely "...
go away..."; they are going to OPPOSE ideas and ACTIONS which affect their lives, they will seek real "justice" and they will use the same tools you do to struggle for that goal.
Now, you and yours can be reasonable, which will lead to the same, or you can turn it into a yet greater human tragedy than mankind has already seen.
Love is the answer, not RELIGION pushed down people's throats. It won't work, and it never has; did you miss that PART of history? Has anyone managed to eliminate all "
homosexuality" by:
1. Converting everyone to heterosexuals.
2. Frightening them into submission or hiding?
3. Applying a different STANDARD of Christian-love; throwing them table scraps, instead of the FEAST Jesus intended?
I don't think people like you don't want to ever really find out what God REALLY thinks; I think your head might explode. I just can't see where He hates homosexuals, as much as some Christians seem to indicate by both their words and more importantly, their actions.
-Mel-