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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Tue May 19, 2015 1:22 am
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Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death

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Little Lucy was told by her mother to make her bed. Lucy didn't listen to her mother and decided to go play outside instead. Lucy committed a sin

Timmy wanted to have a cookie but his mother said no. Timmy sneaked into the kitchen and grabbed one out of the cookie jar. Timmy committed a sin

Billy's friend Jimmy brought his new Megaman action figure to school. Billy's family is poor and can't afford to buy Billy any toys. Billy covets Jimmy's new toy. Billy committed a sin


Do these three deeds deserve death?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Tue May 19, 2015 4:00 pm
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Re: Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death

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Justin108 wrote:

...
Do these three deeds deserve death?


I don’t think those are necessarily sins, because I have understood sin actually means that person rejects God. It is possible that those people did not reject God.

If I would be judge, I would forgive those actions and tell them that it is not right. If they would continue to do wrong things and prove that they are not righteous, then they would not get the eternal life, if we believe this:

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Tue May 19, 2015 4:26 pm
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Re: Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death

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1213 wrote:

if we believe this:


That's kind of the stickler isn't it?

Apparently we can choose to believe whatever we so desire.

What if I choose to believe this:

Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

This doesn't require that I be righteous. All that is required here is that I don't judge others, I don't condemn others, and I forgive others.

Apparently as long as I forgive others I'll be forgiven and therefore it won't matter whether I'm righteous or not, precisely because I'll be forgiven.

Also according to this verse I cannot be condemned if I have not condemned others. So apparently it would be impossible for me to be condemned if I have not condemned others.

In fact, according to this verse, I won't even be judged at all. It clearly states that if I judge not I will not be judged. Therefore unless this verse is a lie, I won't even be judged on "judgement day". There will be no reason to judge me since, according to this verse, I will not be judged at all since I have not judged others.

So anytime we say, "If we believe this,....", it isn't very meaningful when referencing the Bible since depending on which parts of the Bible we actually believe we end up with different outcomes.

Justin108 wrote:

Do these three deeds deserve death?


No, of course not. The Bible is clearly not rational.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Tue May 19, 2015 5:36 pm
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Re: Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death

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[Replying to post 1 by Justin108]

Depending on the character growth each child experiences from that action they did earn death.

Learning that disobedience is OK can make life much harder.

Stealing is another selfish move and life is not selfish.

Learning jealousy is also a move towards death. Being jealous all the time is a bad way to live.

When God said the wages of sin are death we observe that truth in all 3 examples.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Tue May 19, 2015 6:58 pm
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Re: Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death

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Justin108 wrote:

Little Lucy was told by her mother to make her bed. Lucy didn't listen to her mother and decided to go play outside instead. Lucy committed a sin

Timmy wanted to have a cookie but his mother said no. Timmy sneaked into the kitchen and grabbed one out of the cookie jar. Timmy committed a sin

Billy's friend Jimmy brought his new Megaman action figure to school. Billy's family is poor and can't afford to buy Billy any toys. Billy covets Jimmy's new toy. Billy committed a sin


Do these three deeds deserve death?


imCo
No sin on earth is judged to be deemed worthy of death but only of punishment. The sin that damns someone is the sin of rejecting YHWH as Divine and rejecting HIS promises of election to heaven by means of salvation from all our sins.

The sins of the sinful elect and the damned are of equal disvalue, that is, they are both of ultimate disvalue in HIS sight. But the damned are banished to hell because by their free will they rejected HIS offer of salvation from any and all future sin while the sinful elect are redeemed, reborn and forgiven because by their free will they DID accept HIS offer of salvation.

Thus it is NOT the sin that damns a person but who the person is that is sinning the sin, that is, a sinful elect person under the promise of salvation will be saved but a sinful person who rejected HIS divinity and promise of salvation is doomed.

Peace, Ted

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Tue May 19, 2015 8:02 pm
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Re: Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death

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.
ttruscott wrote:


Thus it is NOT the sin that damns a person but who the person is that is sinning the sin, that is, a sinful elect person under the promise of salvation will be saved but a sinful person who rejected HIS divinity and promise of salvation is doomed.

Kindly demonstrate that this claim is anything more than the opinion of a religious group (and their favored literature).

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Wed May 20, 2015 1:13 am
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Re: Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death

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Wootah wrote:

[Replying to post 1 by Justin108]

Depending on the character growth each child experiences from that action they did earn death.

Learning that disobedience is OK can make life much harder.

Stealing is another selfish move and life is not selfish.

Learning jealousy is also a move towards death. Being jealous all the time is a bad way to live.

When God said the wages of sin are death we observe that truth in all 3 examples.

You're editing the scenario. The children don't necessarily turn into rebels and thieves. Romans 6:23 claim that these acts alone are sufficient to earn death. It doesn't depend on whether they end up as vile criminals. According to Romans, the moment these deeds are committed, these children deserve to die. If God commanded these children be stoned to death, would you be ok with that?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 8: Wed May 20, 2015 1:17 am
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Re: Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death

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ttruscott wrote:

Justin108 wrote:

Little Lucy was told by her mother to make her bed. Lucy didn't listen to her mother and decided to go play outside instead. Lucy committed a sin

Timmy wanted to have a cookie but his mother said no. Timmy sneaked into the kitchen and grabbed one out of the cookie jar. Timmy committed a sin

Billy's friend Jimmy brought his new Megaman action figure to school. Billy's family is poor and can't afford to buy Billy any toys. Billy covets Jimmy's new toy. Billy committed a sin


Do these three deeds deserve death?


imCo
No sin on earth is judged to be deemed worthy of death but only of punishment. The sin that damns someone is the sin of rejecting YHWH as Divine and rejecting HIS promises of election to heaven by means of salvation from all our sins.

The sins of the sinful elect and the damned are of equal disvalue, that is, they are both of ultimate disvalue in HIS sight. But the damned are banished to hell because by their free will they rejected HIS offer of salvation from any and all future sin while the sinful elect are redeemed, reborn and forgiven because by their free will they DID accept HIS offer of salvation.

Thus it is NOT the sin that damns a person but who the person is that is sinning the sin, that is, a sinful elect person under the promise of salvation will be saved but a sinful person who rejected HIS divinity and promise of salvation is doomed.

Peace, Ted

Look, Ted. Your posts are worthless to me. You made up your own religion. None of this can be backed by scripture. I'm debating Christianity, not your new-age imaginings

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 9: Wed May 20, 2015 12:49 pm
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Re: Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death

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Justin108 wrote:

Little Lucy was told by her mother to make her bed. Lucy didn't listen to her mother and decided to go play outside instead. Lucy committed a sin

Timmy wanted to have a cookie but his mother said no. Timmy sneaked into the kitchen and grabbed one out of the cookie jar. Timmy committed a sin

Billy's friend Jimmy brought his new Megaman action figure to school. Billy's family is poor and can't afford to buy Billy any toys. Billy covets Jimmy's new toy. Billy committed a sin


Do these three deeds deserve death?


Context is important.

Rom. 6:20-23 "When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of ? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

This is not talking about social justice, but cause and effect. Each of the examples above reinforce in the child that the action is acceptable. If the child continues in the activity, without correction, the child will develop a dependency on that behavior. Also, even if corrected, the child can develop resentment to avoid accepting responsibility. These two can ultimately result in death. However, if one accepts the promise that Adonai(Yah) saves(shua) and follows the example of the one who bore that name, on can break the cycles of habit and guilt.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 10: Wed May 20, 2015 4:30 pm
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Re: Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death

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[Replying to post 7 by Justin108]

it's just not my understanding of the text. We are not commanded to bring about death for sinners. we are commanded to bring love.

But I can see death in my sin and can see it in the examples you gave. Just like Adam & Eve were told when they ate the fruit they would die so too with all sin we die. Sinning is a move away from life towards death.

Those actions break relational bonds.

It seems evident.

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