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Justin108
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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2015 1:22 am  Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death Reply with quote

Little Lucy was told by her mother to make her bed. Lucy didn't listen to her mother and decided to go play outside instead. Lucy committed a sin

Timmy wanted to have a cookie but his mother said no. Timmy sneaked into the kitchen and grabbed one out of the cookie jar. Timmy committed a sin

Billy's friend Jimmy brought his new Megaman action figure to school. Billy's family is poor and can't afford to buy Billy any toys. Billy covets Jimmy's new toy. Billy committed a sin


Do these three deeds deserve death?
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 11: Wed May 20, 2015 4:39 pm
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Re: Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death

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Divine Insight wrote:

What if I choose to believe this:

Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

This doesn't require that I be righteous.


But it probably needs righteousness to obey that. Smile

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 12: Wed May 20, 2015 5:19 pm
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Justin108 wrote:

Look, Ted. Your posts are worthless to me. You made up your own religion. None of this can be backed by scripture. I'm debating Christianity, not your new-age imaginings


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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 13: Wed May 20, 2015 9:07 pm
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Re: Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death

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Justin108 wrote:

ttruscott wrote:


...

imCo
No sin on earth is judged to be deemed worthy of death but only of punishment. The sin that damns someone is the sin of rejecting YHWH as Divine and rejecting HIS promises of election to heaven by means of salvation from all our sins.

The sins of the sinful elect and the damned are of equal disvalue, that is, they are both of ultimate disvalue in HIS sight. But the damned are banished to hell because by their free will they rejected HIS offer of salvation from any and all future sin while the sinful elect are redeemed, reborn and forgiven because by their free will they DID accept HIS offer of salvation.

Thus it is NOT the sin that damns a person but who the person is that is sinning the sin, that is, a sinful elect person under the promise of salvation will be saved but a sinful person who rejected HIS divinity and promise of salvation is doomed.

Peace, Ted


Look, Ted. Your posts are worthless to me. You made up your own religion. None of this can be backed by scripture. I'm debating Christianity, not your new-age imaginings


ttruscott wrote:
The sin that damns someone is the sin of rejecting YHWH as Divine and rejecting HIS promises of election to heaven by means of salvation from all our sins.


Oh, do you deny that Christianity teaches there is an unforgivable sin? Or do you just deny that my understanding of it is correct while the dog fight over this issue still blunders on since the verse was written?

Here is my Biblical support, Mark 3:28 "Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin "-- 30 because they were saying, "He has an unclean spirit."

Since I do not accept the blasphemy that GOD created us as sinners, and therefore we self created ourselves as sinners by our free will choice to sin, this "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" fits neatly into my theology that some rejected YHWH as divine and also rejected HIS promises of election by salvation from all sin because they put their faith in the idea that YHWH was a liar and a false god trying to manipulate people into worshipping HIM.

You scorn my theology because I suggest the context for the unforgivable sin, claiming the Holy Spirit is a demon???

Or maybe you object to this idea: The sins of the sinful elect and the damned are of equal disvalue, that is, they are both of ultimate disvalue in HIS sight. What is YOUR proof that some sins are of lesser evil than others???

Any sin puts some people in hell or Christ on the cross. Is the sin that puts Christ on the cross LESS than the evil that puts another in hell? No one believes this once they think about it. The elect are saved by Christ and the damned already are banished to hell but sin is sin and evil is evil no matter who does it so their sins being graded are not the reason they are saved or doomed.

Does Psalm 5:4 “For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; no evil dwells with You” suggest gradations of evil to you that HE treats some as of less disvalue? Since He does treat some people different than others...why do you hate the idea that it was our choice that set our eternal relationship with HIM? What is the verse you use to prove this could not ever happen?

Perhaps it was this paragraph you flipped over:
ttruscott wrote:
Thus it is NOT the sin that damns a person but who the person is that is sinning the sin, that is, a sinful elect person under the promise of salvation will be saved but a sinful person who rejected HIS divinity and promise of salvation is doomed.


The sins of the good seed, the elect, make them liable to be pulled up when the tares are uprooted, right? Well, how can there be a difference between their sin then? Th e sins of the tares get them uprooted and the sins of the good seed make them liable to be uprooted but they are not because they are made holy (mature in spirit) before the judgment happens. Why them and not the tares? Because, though their sins are bad enough to be condemned with the tares, they are under HIS promise of election by means of the salvation found in Christ. Their sins are worthy of hel but they are saved form hell. All sin has an ultimate disvalue but some are saved by coming under HIS promise of election by their free will.

If you reject this, what do you offer in its place? Favouritism...? Nope, against scripture.

MY pov is eminently supported by scripture - the only thing it does not support is a blasphemous interpretation of scripture that gives a non-believer the ability to stomp all over it ... It is so much fun when an avowed atheist demands that a Christian concede to their limited understanding of GOD's ways and the Holy Spirit...very enlightening.

Peace, Ted

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 14: Thu May 21, 2015 1:55 am
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Re: Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death

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ttruscott wrote:

Oh, do you deny that Christianity teaches there is an unforgivable sin? Or do you just deny that my understanding of it is correct while the dog fight over this issue still blunders on since the verse was written?

I'm denying your view holistically as most of it is made up and not based on any religious doctrine.

Regarding this particular unforgivable sin; it doesn't address my question for debate. I mentioned three scenarios that, according to Christian doctrine, deserve death as punishment. This topic does not address unforgivable sin. Regardless if whether these three sins can be forgiven, the main issue is that the original wage for each sin is death.

But since we're on the topic of unforgivable sin...

ttruscott wrote:
Mark 3:28 "Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin "

So according to Mark 3:28 - 29, the most vile, disgusting thing man can possibly do is to insult the holy spirit? God forgives rape, murder, torture.... but if you dare insult him you will be eternally damned? Do you agree with this hierarchy?


ttruscott wrote:
Since I do not accept the blasphemy that GOD created us as sinners, and therefore we self created ourselves as sinners by our free will choice to sin, this "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" fits neatly into my theology that some rejected YHWH as divine and also rejected HIS promises of election by salvation from all sin because they put their faith in the idea that YHWH was a liar and a false god trying to manipulate people into worshipping HIM.

I take it you're referring to my repeated claims that we are created as natural sinners? This is a typical theologian response; instead of accepting a flaw in your doctrine, you twist and turn your doctrine until you manage to cover up the plot-hole.

It might "fit neatly" into your theology, but it doesn't change the fact that most of your unique theology is made up. There is still nothing in the Bible to support your precise claims that we all decided to follow or reject God prior to our existence on earth.
ttruscott wrote:

You scorn my theology because I suggest the context for the unforgivable sin, claiming the Holy Spirit is a demon???

I'm not sure I follow... are you saying that I am claiming the Holy Spirit is a demon...?


ttruscott wrote:


Or maybe you object to this idea: The sins of the sinful elect and the damned are of equal disvalue, that is, they are both of ultimate disvalue in HIS sight. What is YOUR proof that some sins are of lesser evil than others???
Yes, I absolutely object to that idea. And I'm willing to bet you instinctively reject the idea as well.

Simple question; if a child was caught lying to his parents about doing her homework, would you be ok with her being sentenced to death by the court?


ttruscott wrote:

Any sin puts some people in hell or Christ on the cross. Is the sin that puts Christ on the cross LESS than the evil that puts another in hell? No one believes this once they think about it. The elect are saved by Christ and the damned already are banished to hell but sin is sin and evil is evil no matter who does it so their sins being graded are not the reason they are saved or doomed.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27762

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 15: Thu May 21, 2015 4:25 am
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Re: Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death

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Justin108 wrote:

Little Lucy was told by her mother to make her bed. Lucy didn't listen to her mother and decided to go play outside instead. Lucy committed a sin

Timmy wanted to have a cookie but his mother said no. Timmy sneaked into the kitchen and grabbed one out of the cookie jar. Timmy committed a sin

Billy's friend Jimmy brought his new Megaman action figure to school. Billy's family is poor and can't afford to buy Billy any toys. Billy covets Jimmy's new toy. Billy committed a sin

Do these three deeds deserve death?


If a person accepts 'original sin' the little brats deserve death just for being born in a fallen world. Disobedience, lying and stealing are just icing on the death cake. I remember 'studying' Catholicism when I was a young member of the church of Christ, and reeling from the assault on my imagination, of unbaptized babies burning in Hell.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 16: Thu May 21, 2015 4:59 am
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Re: Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death

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ttruscott wrote:

Perhaps it was this paragraph you flipped over:
ttruscott wrote:
Thus it is NOT the sin that damns a person but who the person is that is sinning the sin, that is, a sinful elect person under the promise of salvation will be saved but a sinful person who rejected HIS divinity and promise of salvation is doomed.


Yes, quite frankly this is where I "flipped". This is because, once again, you are preaching your own made up doctrine as though it were fact. Now I have some leeway towards other Christians preaching the faith they found in ancient documents they believe were inspired by a divine entity. Though I do not agree with their belief that these documents have a divine origin, I still kind of get where their beliefs stem from.

You, on the other hand, make up your own religion. You are the L. Ron Hubbard of a new made up religion that you insist on calling Christianity. I have asked you time and time again to support your beliefs through scripture but you fail to do so. Your imagination is not a viable source to be used as reference. You cannot claim something to be factual if you made it up.


ttruscott wrote:

If you reject this, what do you offer in its place? Favouritism...? Nope, against scripture.

This, it seems, is where your Christian fan-fiction originated. You look at what Christianity provides and the claims made in scripture and it doesn't make sense to you. This is where would-be atheists realize that it doesn't make sense so it probably isn't true. But not you, no, you force it to make sense by editing the story beyond recognition. You add so much that simply is not part of scripture that the end result can barely be called Christianity.

When I was a kid, Toy Story didn't make any sense to me. How could toys made of plastic come to life? So to rectify this anomaly, I imagined the toys to be possessed. This is what I mean by fan-fiction. This is what you're doing to Christianity.

So to answer your question, I reject this and I offer in it's place the simple conclusion that Christianity is simply not true.

ttruscott wrote:
MY pov is eminently supported by scripture

For the millionth time, give me the scripture that supports your point of view so we can settle this dispute once and for all.


ttruscott wrote:
the only thing it does not support is a blasphemous interpretation of scripture that gives a non-believer the ability to stomp all over it

Is calling Hitler a murderer a blasphemous interpretation of the holocaust? Or is it simply an accurate interpretation of the holocaust?

You are so attached to your preconceived notion that Christianity is an infallible fact that anything that questions it is immediately rejected as blasphemous. You don't dare to consider even for a moment that maybe Christianity is not true. You desperately try so hard to make it true in your mind that you reinvent it. You're like a child playing with a shape sorter who refuses to accept that the square does will not fit into the triangular hole so you end up breaking the square into pieces until it fits.


ttruscott wrote:
It is so much fun when an avowed atheist demands that a Christian concede to their limited understanding of GOD's ways and the Holy Spirit

It is just as much fun when a theist believes that he alone of the 2 billion other Christians in the world is the only one enlightened enough to understand the truth behind Christianity. That he is the only one who has received the holy guidance of the Holy Spirit that led to his absolute truth.

Why is it that you're the only Christian I know of that believes in your brand of Christianity? Are you so special that God chose you among all of them to know his divine truth? Were you lead by the Holy Spirit? If so, what about all the other's who have been led by the Holy Spirit? Why weren't they given the same revelation?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 17: Thu May 21, 2015 12:30 pm
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Re: Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death

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Justin108 wrote:


...

But since we're on the topic of unforgivable sin...

ttruscott wrote:
Mark 3:28 "Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin "

So according to Mark 3:28 - 29, the most vile, disgusting thing man can possibly do is to insult the holy spirit? God forgives rape, murder, torture.... but if you dare insult him you will be eternally damned? Do you agree with this hierarchy?

...


I clearly have said that I and Christians in general do not make a distinction between the most vile and most disgusting sins over other "lesser" sins. I'll emphasize it for you: ALL SINS ARE OF EQUAL AND ULTIMATE DISVALUE BEFORE GOD. Your perseverating on this point is meaningless to my theology. The straw horse that some sins are of more disvalue is dead dead dead and will never drink of living water again.

As I have said, I contend that it is not the vileness of the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit that makes it unforgivable but the fact that such a blasphemy can only occur if the person also rejects any and all help from YHWH to redeem them from sin so that once they choose by their free will to so blaspheme, they are eternally evil and will face the consequences of eternal banishment.

Choose by your (generic, not personal) free will to reject YHWH as a false lying god and you self create yourself as totally and distinctly other to what you were created to become, so other you can never fulfill HIS purpose for your creation, that is, to experience the marriage union with HIM in the heavenly state which must be accepted by your free will or it is not a true marriage. So other that only HIS grace can bring you back but that is an option your have destroyed for yourself forever by your free will. And so other you get a new name for your new species, demon and devil.

The sins of the elect are just as evil but by accepting YHWH as their GOD they are under HIS promise of salvation, that is, HIS promise to do everything in HIS power to bring us back to our first free will decision to accept HIM as GOD, and to purify us from our evil.

It is the person who decides their fate by their free will, and not the disvalue as more or less of the sins they choose that puts them under condemnation. This is just the flip side of the atheist wail that a good life on earth must be recognized as righteous and rewarded if a sinful life can be saved.

Yes, sin has an eternal effect upon some people but not because it is more vile and disgusting over other sins. but rather because that sin was a free will choice to reject ever being saved from their sin by rejecting YHWH as divine by putting their faith in the idea HE was a lying false god.

Peace, Ted

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 18: Thu May 21, 2015 12:42 pm
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Re: Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death

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Justin108 wrote:


...

I have asked you time and time again to support your beliefs through scripture but you fail to do so.

...


Which of my beliefs are not supported by scripture? Your claim is a personal blanket statement without any evidence let alone proof so it is against the rules.

Name a belief I hold that you wish to see the support in scripture but do not ask me to write a book on over 40 years of study because I will not comply. Your claim is specious like demanding a full discourse on quantum wave mechanics to justify a round earth, plausible on the surface but useful only to force a denial as unworkable so you can suggest my non-compliance means I have no support.

This is not debate, this is sophistry. And personal.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 19: Thu May 21, 2015 3:12 pm
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Re: Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death

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ttruscott wrote:


I clearly have said that I and Christians in general do not make a distinction between the most vile and most disgusting sins over other "lesser" sins. I'll emphasize it for you: ALL SINS ARE OF EQUAL AND ULTIMATE DISVALUE BEFORE GOD. Your perseverating on this point is meaningless to my theology. The straw horse that some sins are of more disvalue is dead dead dead and will never drink of living water again.


I notice you haven't answered my question on the topic of the equality of sin. I'll post it again; if a child was caught lying to his parents about doing her homework, would you be ok with her being sentenced to death by the court?

ttruscott wrote:

As I have said, I contend that it is not the vileness of the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit that makes it unforgivable but the fact that such a blasphemy can only occur if the person also rejects any and all help from YHWH to redeem them from sin so that once they choose by their free will to so blaspheme, they are eternally evil and will face the consequences of eternal banishment.
This doesn't necessarily follow. What if one initially rejects the Holy Spirit, blasphemes, but later repents? According to Mark 3:19, too bad. It can't be forgiven. It's funny how insulting God is so much worse than raping and murdering children.


ttruscott wrote:

Which of my beliefs are not supported by scripture? Your claim is a personal blanket statement without any evidence let alone proof so it is against the rules.

Name a belief I hold that you wish to see the support in scripture but do not ask me to write a book on over 40 years of study because I will not comply. Your claim is specious like demanding a full discourse on quantum wave mechanics to justify a round earth, plausible on the surface but useful only to force a denial as unworkable so you can suggest my non-compliance means I have no support.

This is not debate, this is sophistry. And personal.

What you need to support is your claim that we all decided to either follow or reject God prior to our existence on earth. If I remember correctly, you believe we all existed prior to our life on earth. God, appearing as nothing more than a man, then came to us and offered us eternal life without any proof. Some of us then chose to believe him and were saved while the rest of us chose to deny him and were sent to earth to be cleansed. I might have some of this wrong... I remember this from a discussion we had years ago so the details may be a bit fuzzy so fill in the bits I have wrong, then support it.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 20: Thu May 21, 2015 7:48 pm
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Re: Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death

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[Replying to post 1 by Justin108]

Yes, indeed they do. The wages of sin are death. So yes those deeds deserve death. But dont stop there. Romans is a book in the new testament. A proclamation of a new gospel. A gospel that teaches even though we all deserve death, we can be spared with the atonement provided in jesus christ. Jesus taught let those without sin cast the first stone, so although we recognise these deeds deserve death, we will not cast the stone that causes it. There is no moral dilemna for the Christian when asked this question because all vengence belongs to god, not man.

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