Homosexuality is changeable

[OpenYourEyes]

In response to this member's post:

I'm curious...this is a question for Christians who oppose same sex couples because they understand the Bible to state that God feels homosexual relationships are unnatural and a sin.

When science eventually proves that homosexuality is not a choice and is a trait governed by genetics and influences on the brain during early gestation...will all those who state that God opposes homosexuality as it's unnatural still feel that way? i.e. when science proves it is natural for those people as they were born that way. Hence we can assume God made them that way. Will those Christians still say the Bible says it's wrong? Or will they consider the possibility that the Bible has been misinterpreted?

Marriage is an important moral issue and since you posted 2 years ago I felt the need to ressurect your thread.

Christian thinkers here and elsewhere have already responded to your homosexuality objection but I will also add a scientific study into the mix.

Here are the facts:
- Homosexuality is a sin (1 Corinthians 6)
- It has not been proven that homosexuality is innate nor regulated only by biology. Sexuality develops throughout the early years of life so culture, psychology, and nurture plays a role.
- There is increasing evidence that homosexuality is changeable and I'll elaborate with a scientific peer-reviewed study...

Dr. Stanton L. Jones and Dr. Mark A. Yarhouse completed a study a few years ago and here's their conclusion:

"we found considerable evidence that change of sexual orientation occurred for some individuals through involvement in the religiously�mediated change methods of Exodus Ministries (23% by self�categorization)." (Pg. 8 Discussion section).

Here are the links to read more..
1 http://wp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws.com/ ... -Final.pdf
2. http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/usmt20/c ... 011.607052

As an extra here is a debate where Dr. Michael Brown defends traditional marriage while destroying arguments for same-sex marriage..
Dr. Michael Brown vs. Dr. Eric Smaw..http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kcncyKCi3vk

[lamar1234]

[Replying to post 69 by lamar1234]

As far as whether homosexuality is 'changeable,' we'd need, I think, to agree on definitions.

What CONSTITUTES homosexuality? Is it just who-puts-what-where? Is it a thought-life?

The best ridiculous scenario I've ever heard goes thusly: you're standing at a fork in a hallway with bedrooms at each end. You can see both rooms but the single inhabitants of each room can see you but not each other, got it?

In Bedroom #1 is a naked or semi-nude, oh I don't know, Brad Pitt, Tom Cruise, Hugh Jackman, you pick it.

Down the other hall in the other bedroom is, again you pick it, Angelina Jolie, Scarlett
Johansson, you get the idea.

Two PERFECT specimens each waiting to spend an evening in ecstasy with you (If you need to interject a quick wedding ceremony, have at it!)

Now, I'm willing to grant that most GUYS in this scenario are going to bedroom #2 but a statistically significant number, 10-15%, will go for #1.

Now, as to it being 'changeable,' I don't know, but the phenomenon of a young man looking at those two options and choosing Brad or Hugh, tells me it is NOT a choice.

In AA they talk about someone being a 'dry' drunk. The guy's still an alcoholic, he just isn't drinking right now.

I think we can liken this phenomenon to your 'changeable' gay.

He might not be DOING it, but he still IS gay.

[Clownboat]

Dear Aaron:

Here's the problem with simply listing the recorded homosexual relationships of ancient times -- the fact that people engaged in them doesn't make it right. It simply shows that people have been engaging in the sin for a long time. I can also list lots of examples of adultery, pedophilia, bestiality, incest, etc. tolerated in the Roman Empire. Does the fact that people engaged in them make them right, too?

I know that parents will often decide that homosexuality is all right based on the fact that they have a child who says he is gay. That means they are accepting it on the basis of emotion rather than fact. Instead of helping their children break free of the stronghold, they encourage it. In doing so, they are actually doing their children a great disservice instead of helping them.

Here is a site devoted to helping parents of ex-gays and gays who want to leave the lifestyle:

http://www.pfox.org/about-us/what-we-do/

Note what they say about themselves:

Founded in May 1998, PFOX was created specifically to be an alternative to the misinformed gay family groups which insist that parents can only prove their love for their gay child if they support gay rights and affirm their child's self-proclaimed gay identity.

Love means helping one's child to realize the best life possible, not simply condoning the life they think they need to live without criticism. It may feel right to a homosexual man to desire men. But it also feels right to a pedophile to molest children and an adulterer to cheat on his wife. We cannot base our morality on feelings. They are too unreliable. Make no mistake about it: Sin can totally blind us and make us think that it's perfectly good and right when it is the worst thing for us.

There are numerous secular reports on how unhealthy the homosexual lifestyle is, how homosexuals have shorter life spans, are more likely to commit suicide, are more likely to be in an abusive relationship and are more likely to have multiple partners with relationships being far more transient than heterosexual ones. Check out the CDC material on it, for example.

Here is more information from the site I noted above:

http://www.pfox.org/ex-gays/

Please check out the video on that page from Dennis Jernigan who left homosexuality behind thanks to the freeing power of Jesus Christ. Anybody can follow in his footsteps and be freed from the lifestyle. The fact that there are so many ex-gays in the world prove this.

You know, it boils down to the same thing for every single human being who has ever lived: We all have to decide which means more to us -- God or our sins. The homosexual who says he must remain a homosexual is choosing his sin over God. That's his privilege. What is galling is the idea that we must all not just accept it, but celebrate it. Nobody who honestly and sincerely wants to please God could ever do that.

How old were you when you chose to be straight?
Could you walk in to a gay bar, look at a person of the same sex as you and choose to get aroused?

[Clownboat]

[Replying to post 48 by OpenYourEyes]

OpenYourEyes, why do you completely ignore the enormous amount of studies worldwide that show that not only does this 'therapy' not work, but rather causes incredible amounts of real and tangible harm, including suicide?

In addition, the study you site was based on people within Exodus International, which has since shut down and which has acknowledged that its therapy did not work.

Alan Chambers, the ministry's president, said in a statement. "For quite some time we've been imprisoned in a worldview that's neither honoring toward our fellow human beings, nor biblical." The announcement was made just one day after Chambers issued an apology to the gay community for the trauma he and the organization caused them.

"I have heard many firsthand stories from people called ex-gay survivors," wrote Chambers. "Stories of people who went to Exodus affiliated ministries or ministers for help only to experience more trauma. I have heard stories of shame, sexual misconduct, and false hope. In every case that has been brought to my attention, there has been swift action resulting in the removal of these leaders and/or their organizations. But rarely was there an apology or a public acknowledgement by me."

Exodus formerly promoted the idea that same-sex attraction can be reduced or eliminated through reparative therapy, a type of therapy that involves prayer and counseling, but now has disassociated itself with the practice.

Because your point ignores the scientific study that I posted. At best it shows that there is conflicting evidence or as I suggested earlier, the reparative therapy, in its current form, does not work for the majority of the gay population.

Ignoring the miniority that reparative or conversion therapy works for with little to no harm is unreasonable and misleading.

Am I missing something, or am I really witnessing someone reject tons of information while holding on to one study that he claims shows conflicting evidence?

Seems to me to be: "Look, there could be conflicting evidence about harm caused by reparative therapy, therefore I reject all the evidence that shows the harm being done."

I don't get this. It seems illogical and I can only assume this kind of non logic is being employed due to a personal desire to do so. Why else would anyone hold on to one small piece of info while disregarding mountains of info that conflicts with it?

[OnceConvinced]

How old were you when you chose to be straight?
Could you walk in to a gay bar, look at a person of the same sex as you and choose to get aroused?

I know I couldn't. Arousal for me is not a choice.

To idea that homosexuality is a choice is clearly ludicrous. It's complete nonsense. I am straight and had no choice about that. The thought of sex with a man turns me off completely. If there's a choice involved, then you absolutely must be bisexual.

I don't believe it changes either. If you are a homosexual and suddenly start telling everyone you're straight, then clearly your repressing your homosexual desires. You're most likely bisexual too, but that won't take away the fact that you are still sexually attracted to the same sex. It just means you're not acting on those desires.

I have heard stories about homosexuals being healed of their gayness and then living straight lives. That doesn't mean they've been healed, it just means they're trying to repress the gay in them. One of the big problems with this is that they end up miserable because they're living a lie.

I have heard one Christian recently talking about his gay daughter and blamed her gayness on a gay friend who supposedly manipulated her into the gay life style. This daughter was condemned by her family for being gay and told it was sinful. So she attempted to live a straight life style. Hallelujah! She was healed. A short time later she commits suicide. Yet this Christian continues to believe others are at fault not realizing that if he'd just accepted his daughter for who she was rather than trying to make out she was sinful... If he had supported her rather than condemned her, she would probably still be alive today being in a happy lesbian relationship.

[chevron1]

[Replying to post 48 by OpenYourEyes]


Seems to me to be: "Look, there could be conflicting evidence about harm caused by reparative therapy, therefore I reject all the evidence that shows the harm being done."

I don't get this. It seems illogical and I can only assume this kind of non logic is being employed due to a personal desire to do so. Why else would anyone hold on to one small piece of info while disregarding mountains of info that conflicts with it?

There is a terrible therapy that is given to gays against their will and its important to talk about it, because it is rumored to be religious workers who advocate it and perpetrate forced chemical conversion. It's called trans-gay therapy. A friend told me that the movie "xxx: state of the union" starring vin diesel was a subtle allegory about gay reparative therapy, especially trans-gay therapy.

Below are pictures from the movie. in the top picture, the xxx tattoo on the back of the neck represents what this friend calls "trans-gay" therapy: the center x marks the injection point into the brain stem, the x's on either side represent the contents of the hypodermic - estrogen. In the bottom picture, the star vin diesel wears a motocycle pants with a black panel in the crotch area symbolizing castration due to estrogen exposure. It is called "trans-gay" therapy because it is supposed to transform a gay man into a transgender man by direct injection of trans hormones into the brain to feminize the brain only without affecting the body. this way he becomes and thinks like a woman, but they are hoping it will change his orientation too. they tell me that sometimes a gay will attend a party and then is knocked out with something like GHB and then he is injected and wakes up without knowing what happened.

The form of estrogen was used in the 1940s for chemical castration and is called Diethylstilbestrol or DES. According to the wikipedia, DES was once given to pregnant women and has a history of causing transgenderism in boys. Because Bruce Jenner has been transitioning to a woman, there has been some speculation about changes to his sexual orientation. It seems that over 60% of men who undergo transition by estrogen have some kind of change in their orientation: either they become bisexual or straight. I am afraid they suffer brain damage too (reduced brain volume, psychosis, lethargy) in addition to becoming like women and they never feel true love any more. That makes me think that there might be too much trade-off, because you're never the man you used to be.

Bruce Jenner: Sexual Orientation Uncertain After Cross Sex Hormone Therapy