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ElCodeMonkey
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:38 am  What did Jesus Really Preach? Reply with quote

Hey everyone, it's been a while for me. I thought I'd pose a debate question and shamelessly plug a request Very Happy. So first of all, I would like to pose that Jesus did not preach sacrifice and atonement. At the time of the last supper, after 3 years of preaching, the disciples didn't even realize he'd be dying. Clearly he was preaching something other than, "I'm going to die for the atonement of your sins." So what was it and why the heck do Christians focus on bloody atonement instead?

As for my request, I thought you peeps would be the absolute best to help me out. I have written a book called "Christians Are Revolting" which ultimately centers around the question above while walking the reader through the experiences of my psychotic Christendom. I'm looking for a few people willing to proof-read it for me both Christian and non-Christian alike. If you have questions or would like to proofread it, please PM me rather than replying so that this thread focuses on the debate question. Be prepared, it is a full 340-page book of 127,000 words. As a thanks, I can also provide a printed copy when it is complete. Thanks!
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 21: Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:27 pm
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Peace to you ElCodeMonkey.

ElCodeMonkey wrote:

So for 3 years Jesus went around proclaiming that he'd give his life as a ransom for many and all 12 of them had their ears blocked until after Mary informed them he had risen from the grave? Just because a single verse can be found doesn't mean it's legit. What about the other hundreds of verses that preached everything other than sacrifice? Notably Martin Luther King Jr also "lived it out" so should we just add to his message as well and proclaim him a sacrifice for sins? I could grab a copy of a speach he gave and add in a random line claiming he's giving his life for others. Of course, it might be a little harder to propagate nowadays, but lies do seem to spread via Facebook meme's pretty easily. Ever see the one claiming the Bible says 365 times not to be afraid? I've seen it twice and it's a complete lie. It's amazing what someone will do for money, fame, or attention.



You seem to be making it out to be an either/or scenario.

He came to give His life as a ransom for many - which He, Himself stated. He took part in the Passover which was all about the blood of the lamb (a direct precursor to Christ as the Lamb and His blood), causing the Destroyer (Death) to pass over every house that had the blood of the lamb over the door. He said that He lays down His life for His sheep. There is this verse that Christ, Himself, states:

This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.


In Revelation - which is inspired (it was given to John while John was in the spirit - in spirit) - the white robes of those who belong to Christ were made clean in the blood of the lamb.


So, clearly, Christ Himself spoke of it.

That does not rule out anything else that He came to do. He came to bear witness to the truth. He came to teach. By deed and by word.


It is not an either/or. It is both.



He came to bear witness to the truth. He came to teach. He came to do a few things. But he also came to give His life as a ransom for many, and to institute a new covenant in His blood. (his death voided the old covenant/contract, his blood instituted a new covenant/contract)


Have you asked Him if what you are saying is true?


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

(please note that I do not know the details that "christianity" may have added to 'atonement'... I am speaking only as to what Christ has said on the matter)

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 22: Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:34 pm
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YahDough wrote:

[Replying to post 15 by ElCodeMonkey]
You use a lot of rhetoric to try to cover up your mistake. I suppose it's like a fool writing a book: The more words, the better.


Moderator Comment

Two things: first, this one line comment does nothing to advance the conversation, and second, it's strictly a personal insult. Please refrain from doing either.

Please review the Rules.


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MPG Recipient Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 23: Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:42 pm
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tam wrote:

Peace to you ElCodeMonkey.

ElCodeMonkey wrote:

So for 3 years Jesus went around proclaiming that he'd give his life as a ransom for many and all 12 of them had their ears blocked until after Mary informed them he had risen from the grave? Just because a single verse can be found doesn't mean it's legit. What about the other hundreds of verses that preached everything other than sacrifice? Notably Martin Luther King Jr also "lived it out" so should we just add to his message as well and proclaim him a sacrifice for sins? I could grab a copy of a speach he gave and add in a random line claiming he's giving his life for others. Of course, it might be a little harder to propagate nowadays, but lies do seem to spread via Facebook meme's pretty easily. Ever see the one claiming the Bible says 365 times not to be afraid? I've seen it twice and it's a complete lie. It's amazing what someone will do for money, fame, or attention.



You seem to be making it out to be an either/or scenario.

He came to give His life as a ransom for many - which He, Himself stated. He took part in the Passover which was all about the blood of the lamb (a direct precursor to Christ as the Lamb and His blood), causing the Destroyer (Death) to pass over every house that had the blood of the lamb over the door. He said that He lays down His life for His sheep. There is this verse that Christ, Himself, states:

This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.


In Revelation - which is inspired (it was given to John while John was in the spirit - in spirit) - the white robes of those who belong to Christ were made clean in the blood of the lamb.


So, clearly, Christ Himself spoke of it.

That does not rule out anything else that He came to do. He came to bear witness to the truth. He came to teach. By deed and by word.


It is not an either/or. It is both.



He came to bear witness to the truth. He came to teach. He came to do a few things. But he also came to give His life as a ransom for many, and to institute a new covenant in His blood. (his death voided the old covenant/contract, his blood instituted a new covenant/contract)


Have you asked Him if what you are saying is true?


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

(please note that I do not know the details that "christianity" may have added to 'atonement'... I am speaking only as to what Christ has said on the matter)


Moderator Comment

This is a beautifully, and gently, written sermon, Tam. The only problem with it is that it is in the wrong subforum; "Christianity and apologetics' doesn't acknowledge the bible and 'what Christ wrote' in the bible as authoritative; in fact, in here, whether or not the bible and 'What Christ said" actually IS 'what Christ said" is one of the questions being debated.

"Theology and Dogma,' however, does accept the bible as authoritative. This is one of the nicest sermons I've seen, but....it's still 'preaching,'

This post would be considered to not comply with the guidelines on preaching. Please read through the guidelines and abide by them.


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Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 24: Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:49 pm
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OnceConvinced wrote:

Would be happy to proof read your book. I am a writer myself and have done the same for other writers.



hmm.........I see you have Christian evangelical site from that title........

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 25: Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:55 pm
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tam wrote:

Have you asked Him if what you are saying is true?

Yes, I asked him quite a bit, actually for many years and through much sorrow and pain as everyone continued to cast me off and excommunicate me. And this is where such asking led me. It led me to believe that the Bible is not entirely truthful when referring to Jesus' teachings and that Jesus taught a humanitarian message of peace rather than a message of sacrifice.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 26: Fri Sep 04, 2015 1:11 pm
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ElCodeMonkey wrote:

YahDough wrote:

[Replying to post 15 by ElCodeMonkey]
You use a lot of rhetoric to try to cover up your mistake. I suppose it's like a fool writing a book: The more words, the better.

What mistake? Let's substantiate your claims here.

Thank you,

Although I apologize for insulting you, I find your diminished regard for the most significant reason for Christ Jesus coming to earth: His blood sacrifice (death) for the forgiveness (atonement) of sins, the biggest mistake of your life.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 27: Fri Sep 04, 2015 1:27 pm
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YahDough wrote:

Although I apologize for insulting you, I find your diminished regard for the most significant reason for Christ Jesus coming to earth: His blood sacrifice (death) for the forgiveness (atonement) of sins, the biggest mistake of your life.


Warning Moderator Final Warning

Comments about the life of others are inappropriate. Focus on ISSUES not personalities.


Please review the Rules.


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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 28: Fri Sep 04, 2015 1:50 pm
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Re: What did Jesus Really Preach?

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ElCodeMonkey wrote:

Hey everyone, it's been a while for me. I thought I'd pose a debate question and shamelessly plug a request Very Happy. So first of all, I would like to pose that Jesus did not preach sacrifice and atonement. At the time of the last supper, after 3 years of preaching, the disciples didn't even realize he'd be dying. Clearly he was preaching something other than, "I'm going to die for the atonement of your sins." So what was it and why the heck do Christians focus on bloody atonement instead?

As for my request, I thought you peeps would be the absolute best to help me out. I have written a book called "Christians Are Revolting" which ultimately centers around the question above while walking the reader through the experiences of my psychotic Christendom. I'm looking for a few people willing to proof-read it for me both Christian and non-Christian alike. If you have questions or would like to proofread it, please PM me rather than replying so that this thread focuses on the debate question. Be prepared, it is a full 340-page book of 127,000 words. As a thanks, I can also provide a printed copy when it is complete. Thanks!


Before I dig any deeper into your OP, I would like to pose a question to you. Do you believe the witness of the New Testament writers, is reliable?

If you answer yes, then I would assume you believe in the "Resurrection of Christ" because that is clearly their witness.

If you say, the New Testament writings are not reliable, then you have no earthly idea what Jesus may have taught. In other words, Jesus may have taught His blood as an atonement, each and everyday, but you could not know, because we have no reliable witness of what He taught, according to you.

So, which is it? If you believe the witness of the New Testament writers is reliable, then I can join the conversation, and go into detail. However, if you do not believe the New Testament writers are reliable, then your question becomes unanswerable for either of us.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 29: Fri Sep 04, 2015 2:02 pm
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Re: What did Jesus Really Preach?

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Realworldjack wrote:

Before I dig any deeper into your OP, I would like to pose a question to you. Do you believe the witness of the New Testament writers, is reliable?

If you answer yes, then I would assume you believe in the "Resurrection of Christ" because that is clearly their witness.

If you say, the New Testament writings are not reliable, then you have no earthly idea what Jesus may have taught. In other words, Jesus may have taught His blood as an atonement, each and everyday, but you could not know, because we have no reliable witness of what He taught, according to you.

So, which is it? If you believe the witness of the New Testament writers is reliable, then I can join the conversation, and go into detail. However, if you do not believe the New Testament writers are reliable, then your question becomes unanswerable for either of us.

It's not so "all or nothing" in my view. Not only can someone be "fairly reliable" and still make a few mistakes here and there, there is also the fact that these writings have been doctored up and selected by others with agendas. So I think there can be a good amount of truth within it even if there are still some lies or incorrect statements. Determining which is which is a matter of research and logic but many things will forever be left unknown with a potential one way or another and a mere perception that one is more likely. For example, "God is love" leads me to believe "God doesn't request mass genocide of children." Someone could offer that the children would all have turned into Hitlers, of course. Now, I cannot know for certain one way or the other, but my logic leads me to believe it is more likely that a loving God would not do such a thing and thus it is more likely that a king with an agenda claimed God wanted something just to get his way.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 30: Fri Sep 04, 2015 2:21 pm
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ElCodeMonkey wrote:

tam wrote:

Have you asked Him if what you are saying is true?

Yes, I asked him quite a bit, actually for many years and through much sorrow and pain as everyone continued to cast me off and excommunicate me. And this is where such asking led me. It led me to believe that the Bible is not entirely truthful when referring to Jesus' teachings and that Jesus taught a humanitarian message of peace rather than a message of sacrifice.


Okay. I cannot say that I have been excommunicated because I never joined anything for that to happen. But I do know others who have been cast off for their faith in Christ over men/religion, and that was quite painful for them. So I do not in the least doubt the pain and sorrow that you experienced.


If someone gives their life for others' is that not also humanitarian?


You said in your OP that because the apostles did not seem to understand that Christ was going to give His life that He did not preach this. What if that is a teaching that He did not emphasize until the end? Such as at the last supper?


What if it is a teaching that he had to show them by doing it? Words could have been misunderstood, but the deed showed them what He meant? So that the emphasis did not come until it was time, and until it happened, and after His resurrection?


I ask these questions because I do not think that the reason you give in your OP is sufficient reason to state that Christ did not teach this.


Though I agree with you that the bible is not inerrant, there are other possibilities that I am not sure you have considered. I can only go by what you have stated here in your OP.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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