The Intrinsic Value of Humanity

[Miles]

Is there such a thing?

The reason I ask is that occasionally someone will suggest that to save the human race we should be looking for ways to live on other planets. Of course there aren't any habitable planets in our solar system so the the suggestion isn't at all reasonable. However, is there any reason we should even be thinking of such a thing? If the human race eventually died out what would be the loss? What is so precious about the human race that we should seek to prolong its existence as best we can? Personally, I don't see any, but maybe I'm missing something.

[Miles]

See, you're focusing on the individuals and not the value of the group. Don't do that.

Who voted you in as the LORD GOD who demands what other people can do?

I can do whatever I want.

Are you under the impression that my "demands" are inviolable? Tell you what, I give you permission to overlook them. . . . well, this one anyway.

If humanity has some intrinsic value that makes it worth saving what is it?

Well, for one thing, when considering all of humanity the vast majority of humans are decent loving people, that makes humanity worth saving right there.

Unless of course, you personally don't see any value in decent loving people?

In other words, if you reject that "value" that I place on humanity as not being "valuable" to you, then who's deciding what the concept of "value" even means?

We can't even begin to discuss the intrinsic value of anything until we both agree on what traits are "valuable".

You seem to be making the very same mistake that theists make when they attempt to speak about "objective morality".

There can't be any such things as "intrinsic value" until we first establish who's doing the valuing.

Okay, lets say you do the valuing. Here's the scenario: It's been discovered that a meteoroid is heading for Earth and due to obliterate the planet in ten years. Technology has advanced a bit where, with an enormous amount of money and effort, it is likely we could send a few people to Mars. They would have a decent chance of colonizing the planet, but their lives would be one of continuous hardship. They would be the only remnants of humanity.
So, is there any value in saving the human race? As I asked in the OP, "What is so precious about the human race that we should seek to prolong its existence as best we can?"

Now, if you can't bring yourself to answer without contending that "value" and "intrinsic value" first need a detailed exposition or clarification of some kind, then don't bother.

[Miles]

perhaps you should start with the human closest to you: yourself. What value do you have?

I fail to see the relevance.

Humanity is, amongst other things, a collection of individuals. What value do you have?

Still irrelevant.

Still not answering, it seems.

Of course I answered. See my remark just above yours. That it isn't the one you want is too bad I guess, but it's the most fitting one I've got.

Shall I infer that you are of the view that you have no value and are, yourself, irrelevant?

Infer whatever you like, it won't change the irrelevancy of your reply.

[Paprika]

perhaps you should start with the human closest to you: yourself. What value do you have?

I fail to see the relevance.

Humanity is, amongst other things, a collection of individuals. What value do you have?

Still irrelevant.

Still not answering, it seems.

Of course I answered. See my remark just above yours. That it isn't the one you want is too bad I guess, but it's the most fitting one I've got.

Shall I infer that you are of the view that you have no value and are, yourself, irrelevant?

Infer whatever you like, it won't change the irrelevancy of your reply.

Ah, the path of Reason: bald assertions, refusing to answer straight questions and nihilism.

What next?

[Bust Nak]

Is there such a thing [as intrinsic value of humanity]?

No. There is no such thing as intrinsic value at all, of anything.

However, is there any reason we should even be thinking of such a thing?

Sure, we want to ensure the long term survival of humanity.

If the human race eventually died out what would be the loss?

The loss would be the entire human race and all the achievements associated with us, obviously.

What is so precious about the human race that we should seek to prolong its existence as best we can? Personally, I don't see any, but maybe I'm missing something.

We are quite smart, smart enough to build a civilization. That's a rarity worth preserving.

Not having any intrinsic value, does not imply not having any value.

[Divine Insight]

Okay, lets say you do the valuing. Here's the scenario: It's been discovered that a meteoroid is heading for Earth and due to obliterate the planet in ten years. Technology has advanced a bit where, with an enormous amount of money and effort, it is likely we could send a few people to Mars. They would have a decent chance of colonizing the planet, but their lives would be one of continuous hardship. They would be the only remnants of humanity.
So, is there any value in saving the human race? As I asked in the OP, "What is so precious about the human race that we should seek to prolong its existence as best we can?"

Now, if you can't bring yourself to answer without contending that "value" and "intrinsic value" first need a detailed exposition or clarification of some kind, then don't bother.

I believe in reincarnation, so for me personally there is no dire need to save humanity. But that's a whole other topic.

However, if I was convinced of a purely secular materialistic universe, then saving humanity (as well as all other living animals) would be extremely important.

Why? Well, if for no other reason than simply because life is "precious". It took billions of years to evolve. It would seem a shame to let all that evolution go down the drain without at least trying to save it.

Many secular atheists have an appreciation of life. And the fact that it took billions of years to evolve.

My question to you would be, "If you could save humanity from destruction would you even try?" And if so, why? If not, why not?

[jgh7]

I have to agree with Paprika. If you want to judge the value of humanity, then one way of doing it is to judge the value of an individual and go from there.

Your continued insistence that it is irrelevant to do this is kind of like saying you want to go on a debate forum but are unwilling to debate.

Edit: I'd like to gain further understanding of your views. You're questioning what the intrinsic value is of humanity. But I wonder, do you think anything has intrinsic value? What are the requirements for anything to have intrinsic value? Or do you simply not believe in intrinsic value at all, and thus every single thing in the universe has no value?

[Miles]

Is there such a thing [as intrinsic value of humanity]?

No. There is no such thing as intrinsic value at all, of anything.

However, is there any reason we should even be thinking of such a thing?

Sure, we want to ensure the long term survival of humanity.

If the human race eventually died out what would be the loss?

The loss would be the entire human race and all the achievements associated with us, obviously.

What is so precious about the human race that we should seek to prolong its existence as best we can? Personally, I don't see any, but maybe I'm missing something.

We are quite smart, smart enough to build a civilization. That's a rarity worth preserving.

Not having any intrinsic value, does not imply not having any value.

Thank you for a reasonable reply.

I believe in reincarnation, so for me personally there is no dire need to save humanity. But that's a whole other topic.

However, if I was convinced of a purely secular materialistic universe, then saving humanity (as well as all other living animals) would be extremely important.

Why? Well, if for no other reason than simply because life is "precious". It took billions of years to evolve. It would seem a shame to let all that evolution go down the drain without at least trying to save it.

Many secular atheists have an appreciation of life. And the fact that it took billions of years to evolve.

My question to you would be, "If you could save humanity from destruction would you even try?" And if so, why? If not, why not?

And thank you for a reasonable reply as well.

As for "If you could save humanity from destruction would you even try? And if so, why? If not, why not?" If it amounted to saving a few brave souls, for their sake, sure. As for the human race itself, a virtually extinct group of animals in this scenario, no. I don't see any intrinsic value in it that would merit the effort.
Say it's an effort that necessitated putting a dozen humans in suspended animation and shooting them off into space in hopes that they would land on another planet so as to continue the human race. Regardless of the next to impossible odds of this happening, I don't believe in the motivation behind it. In of itself, the human race simply isn't important.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 25 by Divine Insight]

I believe in reincarnation, so for me personally there is no dire need to save humanity. But that's a whole other topic.

It sure is another topic, and a very interesting one. Of course, the subject of the forum is debates with Christians and not Buddhists, but given your view on reincarnation, I have to wonder why you DO value humanity at all?

It seems to me that reincarnation only is valuable because of the GOAL... humans are only a stepping stone in that regard. So, if we were to annihilate humanity in one swell swoop, as you say, there is no dire need to save humanity. I guess, the utter destruction of the human race would only hasten the ... nirvana or the heaven.. or some other ultimate goal of a theist. ( I'm including Buddhists as theists here due to their having an ultimate GOAL that is supernatural, in the same way as Christians have an ultimate goal of attaining heaven. Heaven and nirvana are goals.. )

It seem to me that theists ( those by my one time definition of those who have supernatural "goals" ) ONLY really value the goal, and not the means to those ends.

Human life is... a rung in a ladder.. TO a valued goal. Humanity is not very INTRINSICALLY valuable. It seems to me that the two of you embrace nihilism as a philosophy.

Having said all of that, I am aware that I am treading a fine line of starting to derail the topic of discussion.

I would say that both you and Miles are nihilists, and as such value nothing BUT a pie in the sky kind of goal. Miles might NOT be a Christian.. so he might not have ANY goals to value at all, and of course, that would include the goals of humanity as well.