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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:48 pm
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Is the widom of Jesus the wisdom of Judaism?

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Question.

If Jesus early followers had not claimed that he was the Messiah, and his later followers had not made him into a God...

Do you think Jesus would have been accepted either as a Jewish prophet, or a great Rabbi?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Thu Sep 03, 2015 5:01 pm
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Re: Is the widom of Jesus the wisdom of Judaism?

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Elijah John wrote:

Do you think Jesus would have been accepted either as a Jewish prophet, or a great Rabbi?


I don't see how he could have been. Jesus rejected orthodox Judaism and proclaimed the Chief Priests of Judaism as well as the scribes of the scriptures to be the greatest of all hypocrites deserving of the greatest damnation.

Jesus was preaching apostasy against orthodox Judaism.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Fri Sep 04, 2015 1:01 pm
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Re: Is the widom of Jesus the wisdom of Judaism?

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Divine Insight wrote:

I don't see how he could have been. Jesus rejected orthodox Judaism and proclaimed the Chief Priests of Judaism as well as the scribes of the scriptures to be the greatest of all hypocrites deserving of the greatest damnation.

Jesus was preaching apostasy against orthodox Judaism.


Judaism isn't synonymous with orthodoxy. Much of what Jesus taught was rooted in Hebrew religious and cultural traditions.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Fri Sep 04, 2015 1:45 pm
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Re: Is the widom of Jesus the wisdom of Judaism?

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Haven wrote:

Divine Insight wrote:

I don't see how he could have been. Jesus rejected orthodox Judaism and proclaimed the Chief Priests of Judaism as well as the scribes of the scriptures to be the greatest of all hypocrites deserving of the greatest damnation.

Jesus was preaching apostasy against orthodox Judaism.


Judaism isn't synonymous with orthodoxy. Much of what Jesus taught was rooted in Hebrew religious and cultural traditions.


Clearly many Jews believed that Judaism was synonymous with orthodoxy. Otherwise there would have been no Temples, Chief Priests to oversee them, and scribes to keep every "Holy Jot and Tittle" in order.

However, if you are suggesting that many actual individual Jews didn't buy into religious orthodoxy then all that says is that Jews, as a culture, aren't any different from any other culture since it's usually the case that the masses don't buy into the orthodoxy of these doctrine-based religions.

Many self proclaimed "Christians" (like Elijah John) reject Christian Orthodoxy. Many of them reject churches and religious authority. Most even reject much of what's actually written in the Christian Scriptures or "Bible".

I personally don't see what's left that supports their self-proclamation to be "Christians" at that point.

I just heard a report on NPR radio about a survey taken on Catholics. The survey reveals that the overwhelming majority of "Catholics" (about 80%) actually disagree with the Catholic Church and with the Catholic Pope on many religious issues. Specifically they disagree on what constitutes a "sin" in matters of living arrangements, and sexual behavior. Most Catholics also do not believe that it is a sin to use contraceptives to avoid pregnancy, etc.

Think of how ironic this is.

The Catholic Church is founded on the ideology that the Catholic "Church" is itself the "Body of Christ". Therefore if a Catholic disagrees with the "Church" then they also disagree with the "Body of Christ".

In short, technically they would be excommunicated if tried to take their stance with the Church itself. And therefore they would not longer be an "official member of the club called "Catholicism", and thus they could no longer call themselves "Catholics".

This is a prime example of how people reject the clubs or cults they had originally joined only to insist on keeping the label that the club associates with.

I don't see where the Jews are any different. So I don't doubt that many Jews did indeed reject orthodox Judaism. But like I say, that's the same as rejecting a club but wanting to keep the label anyway. It's a form of having the cake and eating it too.

If Jesus was a rebel, then he was indeed preaching "apostasy" against Orthodox Judaism, the Temple, the Chief Priests, and even the scribes, which is basically to claim that the scriptures themselves have been corrupted. Because the scribes are the ones who keep the jots and tittles of the scriptures in order. And if the scribes are untrustworthy hypocrites (as Jesus proclaimed) then the scriptures are also untrustworthy scribbles.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Sat Sep 05, 2015 4:21 pm
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Re: Is the widom of Jesus the wisdom of Judaism?

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Divine Insight wrote:

Haven wrote:

Divine Insight wrote:

I don't see how he could have been. Jesus rejected orthodox Judaism and proclaimed the Chief Priests of Judaism as well as the scribes of the scriptures to be the greatest of all hypocrites deserving of the greatest damnation.

Jesus was preaching apostasy against orthodox Judaism.


Judaism isn't synonymous with orthodoxy. Much of what Jesus taught was rooted in Hebrew religious and cultural traditions.


Clearly many Jews believed that Judaism was synonymous with orthodoxy. Otherwise there would have been no Temples, Chief Priests to oversee them, and scribes to keep every "Holy Jot and Tittle" in order.


Many did. Many also did not. The Pharisees were trying to minimize the role of the Temple. Of course, the Sadducee's disagreed.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:43 am
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Re: Is the widom of Jesus the wisdom of Judaism?

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Goat wrote:

Divine Insight wrote:

Haven wrote:

Divine Insight wrote:

I don't see how he could have been. Jesus rejected orthodox Judaism and proclaimed the Chief Priests of Judaism as well as the scribes of the scriptures to be the greatest of all hypocrites deserving of the greatest damnation.

Jesus was preaching apostasy against orthodox Judaism.


Judaism isn't synonymous with orthodoxy. Much of what Jesus taught was rooted in Hebrew religious and cultural traditions.


Clearly many Jews believed that Judaism was synonymous with orthodoxy. Otherwise there would have been no Temples, Chief Priests to oversee them, and scribes to keep every "Holy Jot and Tittle" in order.


Many did. Many also did not. The Pharisees were trying to minimize the role of the Temple. Of course, the Sadducee's disagreed.


In the book "Paul and the Invention of Christianity" the author argues that Jesus WAS a Pharisee.

Do you think that if Jesus early followers, (like the Ebionites) had not claimed he was the Messiah, or his later followers had not made a god out of him. that he would have been accepted by Judaism as either a great Rabbi or Prophet?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Tue Sep 15, 2015 2:58 pm
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Re: Is the widom of Jesus the wisdom of Judaism?

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Elijah John wrote:

Goat wrote:

Divine Insight wrote:

Haven wrote:

Divine Insight wrote:

I don't see how he could have been. Jesus rejected orthodox Judaism and proclaimed the Chief Priests of Judaism as well as the scribes of the scriptures to be the greatest of all hypocrites deserving of the greatest damnation.

Jesus was preaching apostasy against orthodox Judaism.


Judaism isn't synonymous with orthodoxy. Much of what Jesus taught was rooted in Hebrew religious and cultural traditions.


Clearly many Jews believed that Judaism was synonymous with orthodoxy. Otherwise there would have been no Temples, Chief Priests to oversee them, and scribes to keep every "Holy Jot and Tittle" in order.


Many did. Many also did not. The Pharisees were trying to minimize the role of the Temple. Of course, the Sadducee's disagreed.


In the book "Paul and the Invention of Christianity" the author argues that Jesus WAS a Pharisee.

Do you think that if Jesus early followers, (like the Ebionites) had not claimed he was the Messiah, or his later followers had not made a god out of him. that he would have been accepted by Judaism as either a great Rabbi or Prophet?


There are those that say so. If Jesus wasn't, a lot of the early followers of Jesus were aware of the Pharisee philosophy and adopted much of it. On the other hand, much of what is said to be teachings of Jesus is very much against what that Pharisee's stood for, which, of course, might be additions from later followers after Christianity and Judaism when their own separate ways. But, the age of prophecy ended with the first Diaspora.. so no, he would not be considered a prophet.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 8: Thu Sep 17, 2015 9:54 am
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Re: Is the widom of Jesus the wisdom of Judaism?

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[Replying to post 7 by Goat]

Not a prophet...since the "book was closed" on prophecy, so to speak...but what about a great Rabbi...IF Jesus had not been Deified by the Church.

I understand why he is not considered the Messiah by most Jews (with the exceptions of groups like the ancient Ebionites)...and you have answered why he is not considered a prophet, (since the age of prophecy ended, that would also excluded John the Baptist as well..)

Was Jesus TOO rebellious in his teaching to be considered even a Good Rabbi? The "Rabbi Jesus" teacher of the Sermon on the Mount and the Parables...was even that TOO much at odds with Jewish thought of the day?

If Jesus of Nazareth had not become the "Christ of Faith" (Deified by the Church) and remained the historical Jesus, would have been considered a great Rabbi...or is even the historical Jesus considered an apostate by Jewish standards of the day, and still today?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 9: Mon May 02, 2016 7:54 am
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Re: Is the widom of Jesus the wisdom of Judaism?

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Quote:


Judaism isn't synonymous with orthodoxy. Much of what Jesus taught was rooted in Hebrew religious and cultural traditions.




Many years ago, I was acquainted with a Jewish liberal (non religious) scholar who read the New Testament and had great admiration for Jesus. He said Jesus was the Jew he always wanted to be. That unlike so many Christians and Jews, one does not become righteous in God's eyes by merely proclaiming themselves to be of either religion. Good deeds and working to make this a better world for all is the better way to live and will make one worthier of divine grace.

Jesus taught by commandment and, more importantly, by example. He said to his followers "follow me", not worship me. Do the things I do, live your life as I do. Heal the sick, feed the hungry, comfort those in need. Forget the public fasting, the ritualism, the public profession of one's religiosity. Just be good to one another and promote Peace.

I have known other Jews just like this gentleman and, in truth, many were better Christians than those who proclaim themselves as such. The bottom line is that according to the New Testament, one becomes a Christian not by self declaration but by one's good conduct towards others.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 10: Mon May 02, 2016 9:38 am
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Re: Is the widom of Jesus the wisdom of Judaism?

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koko wrote:

Quote:


Judaism isn't synonymous with orthodoxy. Much of what Jesus taught was rooted in Hebrew religious and cultural traditions.




Many years ago, I was acquainted with a Jewish liberal (non religious) scholar who read the New Testament and had great admiration for Jesus. He said Jesus was the Jew he always wanted to be. That unlike so many Christians and Jews, one does not become righteous in God's eyes by merely proclaiming themselves to be of either religion. Good deeds and working to make this a better world for all is the better way to live and will make one worthier of divine grace.

Jesus taught by commandment and, more importantly, by example. He said to his followers "follow me", not worship me. Do the things I do, live your life as I do. Heal the sick, feed the hungry, comfort those in need. Forget the public fasting, the ritualism, the public profession of one's religiosity. Just be good to one another and promote Peace.

I have known other Jews just like this gentleman and, in truth, many were better Christians than those who proclaim themselves as such. The bottom line is that according to the New Testament, one becomes a Christian not by self declaration but by one's good conduct towards others.


Well said, good conduct yes, but also good interior attitudes towards God and others that motivates that conduct.

Welcome to the site, Koko.
Wink

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